I am having my keel rebedded this winter. I shopped the price extensively and found a very wide variation as well as a wide variation in experience and willingness to perform the work. I was quoted a high of $5000.00 from a very reputable Newport yard to $1500.00 from a yard that had only done a few. I ended up at a yard that was willing to work with me, allow me to do as much prep work as possible and charge at an hourly rate. I realize that this could bite me however I am willing to take that chance. If the job goes well and I do a ton of prep then I get away cheap. If it is a nightmare then I pay dearly. Still better than paying $5K and having it go really easy for some high end yard. RT
Droppin the keel
Well the insurance company agrees that the keel needs to be dropped to do this properly, whew!
The yard agrees that it is a tough job, they'll do it, but only at T&M. They would have done the re-torque and wrap for a hard # of $2,400, but not the drop. Must be tough!
So now I'm getting the quote to the adjuster so I can get my boat back!! First time I've been without an Ericson in about 7 years!! What a 'B'!!
Well the insurance company agrees that the keel needs to be dropped to do this properly, whew!
The yard agrees that it is a tough job, they'll do it, but only at T&M. They would have done the re-torque and wrap for a hard # of $2,400, but not the drop. Must be tough!
So now I'm getting the quote to the adjuster so I can get my boat back!! First time I've been without an Ericson in about 7 years!! What a 'B'!!
JohnK on this board did the keel rebed himself with the aid of a sympathetic yard that simply hung the E38 in the Travellift. The mast was removed and all the keelbolts loosened with the nuts turned so there was a 1/2" of clearance under them. The boat was then lifted. The keel apparently dropped itself after a short time. Then the boat was lowered, the keel nuts backed off all the way but not removed and the hull was lifted again. Scrapers and a powerwasher cleaned the crud out of the joint, let dry, apply 5200 drop hull and tighten fasteners. Other than the weights of the parts the process is straightforward. I have heard that the problems arise when the keel doesn't want to drop. Then thin wood wedges, chisels, etc. must be driven in to break the seal. I can see this being a real issue. If this is the case with my keel I may simply opt for new nuts and washers bedded and torqued. If the keel doesn't want to come off with some effort, then likely the bond is just fine. Time will tell. RT
Without adding any separate crain time charges while the boat sits in the slings...
(Of course our boat was already hauled for a bottom job, so there was no separate fee to haul and splash.)
I would (roughly) calculate the labor for 2 guys all day, @ $75./hr = $1200.
One problem for a less experienced yard is a way to secure and support the detached keel. Our local yard has a steel box frame with a wide support base, that stands about 3 feet tall. They can put this around the keel before removing the nuts and raising the hull off.
The lead keel is blocked in place then with timber pieces and wedges. For us they picked the hull, with mast in, straight up about a foot. Threads were inspected, and all old sealant was removed, along with the original mold release wax (!) on the bottom of the hull.
I could imagine your cost going to $2K or 2.5K, but not much more.
Just my .02 worth.
In our situation, they lowered the hull back down on a lotta 3M 5200, and torqued up the nuts on big washers. Some low rez pics are in an older thread here.
Good luck on your repair.
Loren in PDX
(Of course our boat was already hauled for a bottom job, so there was no separate fee to haul and splash.)
I would (roughly) calculate the labor for 2 guys all day, @ $75./hr = $1200.
One problem for a less experienced yard is a way to secure and support the detached keel. Our local yard has a steel box frame with a wide support base, that stands about 3 feet tall. They can put this around the keel before removing the nuts and raising the hull off.
The lead keel is blocked in place then with timber pieces and wedges. For us they picked the hull, with mast in, straight up about a foot. Threads were inspected, and all old sealant was removed, along with the original mold release wax (!) on the bottom of the hull.
I could imagine your cost going to $2K or 2.5K, but not much more.
Just my .02 worth.
In our situation, they lowered the hull back down on a lotta 3M 5200, and torqued up the nuts on big washers. Some low rez pics are in an older thread here.
Good luck on your repair.
Loren in PDX
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As Rob mentions, I did a keel rebed myself on my 38 this spring. The thread with pictures is here, http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4978
I'd do it again in a flash if I had to. It wasn't a big deal (plus now I have the sockets, wrenches, wire brushes, etc.!). The time elapsed from start to finish was less than 12 hours since the yard needed the travelift back next morning. I really can't see how a yard can charge thousands for this same job.
One thought about a patch job of glassing around the hull keel seam - if it cracks and leaks later and needs to be fixed, it will be way more difficult to separate the hull and keel. Also, I used 2-part polysulfide, not 5200, since the rationale is to seal the keel to the hull, not adhere it. The bolts are what adheres the keel. Polysulfide is a better sealant than 5200 (which is a better adhesive). Just my $.02.
I'd do it again in a flash if I had to. It wasn't a big deal (plus now I have the sockets, wrenches, wire brushes, etc.!). The time elapsed from start to finish was less than 12 hours since the yard needed the travelift back next morning. I really can't see how a yard can charge thousands for this same job.
One thought about a patch job of glassing around the hull keel seam - if it cracks and leaks later and needs to be fixed, it will be way more difficult to separate the hull and keel. Also, I used 2-part polysulfide, not 5200, since the rationale is to seal the keel to the hull, not adhere it. The bolts are what adheres the keel. Polysulfide is a better sealant than 5200 (which is a better adhesive). Just my $.02.
About mandating the removal of the spar to get at the fastenings...
This probably varies, depending on how the nuts are accessed in the bilge. On some of the later model Ericsons there appears to be a heavy plate that spans several TAFG stringers, on which the mast base is mounted.
On our Olson, there is a wider "hat section stringer" that carries the mast base, and this does not block access to any of the nuts.
Loren
u079721
Contributing Partner
Who took my keel?
It is even more disconcerting to see your boat suspended in air with no keel underneath it. Not sure whether suspending all of the hull weight on the six pads alone like this was a good idea, but the yard said it was OK, and it seem to work out allright.
It is even more disconcerting to see your boat suspended in air with no keel underneath it. Not sure whether suspending all of the hull weight on the six pads alone like this was a good idea, but the yard said it was OK, and it seem to work out allright.
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No Keel.jpg
noproblemo2
Member III
Personally, prefer to see the keel attached, but certainly understand the temporary reasons why it is not. Sure looks different when not attached...
Replaced all the nuts and washers on my 38 two years ago. Not sure if the PO had rebedded the keel but there were no leaks and no cracks at the joint. Doubled up on the flat washers and got rid of the lock washers. Added jam nuts on top of the keel bolt nuts to lock them into place and all set in 5200 to seal the threads from water, much more secure. Never found out the proper torque but used a 4' pipe on the wrench and both legs of two strong guys to tighten while the boat sat on the hard. Jam nuts were tightened the same way so no way they back off now. In 2 years of hard SF bay sailing (30 knts and short steep waves) there is still no crack at the joint when we just hauled out.
I agree with the comments, the fiberglass patch around the keel will only be as good as the bond between the resin and the lead. Its all in shear and isnt even close to the strength of mechanical fasteners.
good luck on the project
I agree with the comments, the fiberglass patch around the keel will only be as good as the bond between the resin and the lead. Its all in shear and isnt even close to the strength of mechanical fasteners.
good luck on the project
Should I take the bet?
Well the yard doing the repair will be dropping the keel next week. The yard owner thinks the keel bolts will be fine. I'm not so sure, thus the reason he's dropping the keel.
So...in jest we have a bet for lunch, but he wants to up it to a C note that the bolts will be fine, I say they'll be corroded to some degree.
To my knowledge, the keel has never been dropped and rebedded.
Think I should up the bet to the C note?
Is this worth a poll?
Well the yard doing the repair will be dropping the keel next week. The yard owner thinks the keel bolts will be fine. I'm not so sure, thus the reason he's dropping the keel.
So...in jest we have a bet for lunch, but he wants to up it to a C note that the bolts will be fine, I say they'll be corroded to some degree.
To my knowledge, the keel has never been dropped and rebedded.
Think I should up the bet to the C note?
Is this worth a poll?
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I would firstly ask him why he thinks the keel bolts will be fine (ie. what does he base that on?) and secondly, I would ensure you have agreement on what "fine" means--ie. bright silver/no corrosion, light rust, but still all intact, slightly worn away, etc.
Either way, I don't think I'd bet that much--maybe a case of beer, or a credit for future work.
Good luck! Let us know the outcome, maybe with pictures.
Frank.
Either way, I don't think I'd bet that much--maybe a case of beer, or a credit for future work.
Good luck! Let us know the outcome, maybe with pictures.
Frank.
The 'bet'
He and I have discussed this numerous times. I have cited all you folks here on the Ericson Exchange, but I think he's more familiar with the Catalina Smile than the Ericson Smile.
I hear you on defining 'bolts are fine', I thought that as well, betting is a fine art.
I will be going down next week once the keel is dropped and will take mucho pictures and will do my best to download them.
Lunch in Santa Barbara is a pretty good bet, but then I guess that needs definition as well!!
If I were to lose, McDonalds here I come. If I win, Chuck's steak House here I come.
He and I have discussed this numerous times. I have cited all you folks here on the Ericson Exchange, but I think he's more familiar with the Catalina Smile than the Ericson Smile.
I hear you on defining 'bolts are fine', I thought that as well, betting is a fine art
.I will be going down next week once the keel is dropped and will take mucho pictures and will do my best to download them.
Lunch in Santa Barbara is a pretty good bet, but then I guess that needs definition as well!!
If I were to lose, McDonalds here I come. If I win, Chuck's steak House here I come.
noproblemo2
Member III
"Frank"ly I agree with Frank on defining what "fine" means--ie. bright silver/no corrosion, light rust, but still all intact, slightly worn away, etc. prior to making your bet. If you do lose, there is always the beach nearby for a nice "picnic" lunch
hahaha
That's funny, at least Santa Barbara has beutiful beaches. Nah, it'd have to be McDonalds, he ain't pretty enough. Heck, might as well go the gut truck route if I really lose.
Seriously though, with 18 years of potential salt water intrusion in an anerobic enviroment, there's got to be corrosion, so yup, needs to be defined to what extent. Plus, how many? He's got 13 chances at winning potentially. So would it be all or a percentage etc...
That's funny, at least Santa Barbara has beutiful beaches. Nah, it'd have to be McDonalds, he ain't pretty enough
. Heck, might as well go the gut truck route if I really lose.Seriously though, with 18 years of potential salt water intrusion in an anerobic enviroment, there's got to be corrosion, so yup, needs to be defined to what extent. Plus, how many? He's got 13 chances at winning potentially. So would it be all or a percentage etc...
Be careful what you wish for...
Hey wait a minute. Do you really want to be betting AGAINST your boat ?
Hey wait a minute. Do you really want to be betting AGAINST your boat ?
hmmm
I'm not really betting against my boat, just the keel bolts. She got me to port when she was sick, she's a great rig, just a little down in the mouth
, she'll get better, we're just going through the diagnosis. I bet a lot of 'doctors' bet on their patients diagnosis:nerd:.
I'm not really betting against my boat, just the keel bolts. She got me to port when she was sick, she's a great rig, just a little down in the mouth
, she'll get better, we're just going through the diagnosis. I bet a lot of 'doctors' bet on their patients diagnosis:nerd:.erobitaille
Member II
Like a Timex "Takes a Licking and Keeps on Ticking"
Celtium,
Don't worry about pushing the 38 hard. When we brought our boat up from SD 3 years ago we left Santa Barbara at 4AM got around Point Conception with no trouble at all. At 6PM we picked up 8' to 10' seas and 25 to 30 kts wind dead on the nose. We took water in the cockpit 3 or 4 times that night. the best we could do was motor at 5kts with a lot of cavatation. She took a pounding and just kept motoring on. We gave up at about 4 AM the next morning and pulled in to Morro Bay. I had the boat out of the water last year and the keel joint shows no signs of stress. Prepare your boat well with jack lines, life raft, storm sail etc. and she will take you any where you want to go at any time.
Celtium,
Don't worry about pushing the 38 hard. When we brought our boat up from SD 3 years ago we left Santa Barbara at 4AM got around Point Conception with no trouble at all. At 6PM we picked up 8' to 10' seas and 25 to 30 kts wind dead on the nose
. We took water in the cockpit 3 or 4 times that night. the best we could do was motor at 5kts with a lot of cavatation. She took a pounding and just kept motoring on. We gave up at about 4 AM the next morning and pulled in to Morro Bay. I had the boat out of the water last year and the keel joint shows no signs of stress. Prepare your boat well with jack lines, life raft, storm sail etc. and she will take you any where you want to go at any time.