used Ericson (E-36 RH)

kms

New Member
Hello, I will be looking at a 1982 Ericson 36 soon. I plan to sail the Puget Sound, the inside passage and do some costal runs down to Oregon. I will be sailing solo and sometimes with one other person. I don,t know much about these boats and how they handle on their different points of sailing. Also any input as to what to look for as I do a survey with the broker would be very helpful.
Regards
KMS
 

Sailsteve

Member
E-36

First big question is, are you looking at the 36 Ron Holland design or the more traditional older Ericson 36.

I can tell you a great deal about the 36 RH. Let me know.

Steve
 

Peter

New Member
Ericson 36 RH

I can supply some information if this is the boat that you are purchasing. My Ericson 36 is located at Point Roberts Wa. A good way to contact local owners is through the PHRF of the Northwest.

Peter
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
82/36

If it is an 82-it pretty much has to be the RH design-and is for sure my favorite E-boat. The 36 was my first project when I worked for the factory- did the deck layouts, rating optimization (together w/RH himself), and ran the factory race program on the aluminum prototype("Shotgun) and the 2 production factory race boats ("Rooster Cogburn" in Norcal and "Outlaw" in Socal). Chris Corlett sailed the "Rooster" in SF Bay, and I sailed "Outlaw" down south.

Extremely well built, VERY fast-especially in light-moderate air (but not bad in breeze either), and originally rated 102, later 108 PHRF, where I believe it stands in most of the US.

After many years away from of these boats, and sailing on newer generation types such as the Bendytoy 36.7, etc. I had chance to sail again on one here in Chicago, and blew the fleet away! Obviously not as fast b4b as the 36.7, but we hung close enough to win.

The interior is the classic offshore style-meaning 2 can sleep on the high side, and compared to more modern layouts, she is a good design for extended offshore sailing.

Definitely in my top 3 all time racer cruisers-fast, comfy, and easy to sail. By today's standards the cockpit is quite small, but this was very much in style back in the day-this means it is great for offshore sailing, but a bit crowded for close buoy racing with lots of mark roundings-but not bad.

For Puget Sound you will find she is very well suited (lighter air). In breeze she is still quick, but you need the right sail combo, or she can be a handful (tippy and hard to steer). Get the right sails on ( 25 knots=#3 and a reef), and you are good to go.

Let us know anytime you have more specific questions-but that is an EXCELLENT choice!

S
 
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Sailsteve

Member
Outlaw

Seth,

Wasn't Outlaw an E-33? I seem to vaguely remember that Rooster was a 36, and there was one other boat shown in all the ads, SPAR WARS?

Steve
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Yup

Steve,

You are 100% correct-the prototype 33 WAS called Outlaw-and I sailed that boat for 2 seasons after we sold the factory 36's.

It had a trick super bendy Sparcraft rig with jumper struts and the runners were CRITICAL to keep the rig up-the interior was completely stripped in the ends with just enough in the main cabin for offshore sailing (pilot and settee on each side, nav station, minimal galley, open head forward).

She was SUPER fast in light air all around and downwind in a breeze, but the keel was too light for upwind in anything over about 15 KTWS-we would need a #3 while our competitors could still carry heavy #1 genoas, so if there was any chop we did not have the punch or stability to keep moving well. Downwind it paid off, but for buoy racing you need the upwind performance.

The 36 was actually competitive at the Grand Prix level (I sailed one at the 84 1 Ton N/A's and was 4th overall/top produciton boat), but the 33 was not-even the prototype. Great club boat, but not as well rounded as the 36.

Back to the name thing-I know Shotgun was the alum 36 proto, and Rooster Cogburn was the red production boat up north in the Bay, and my memory says our 36 down south was also named Outlaw-but now I will have to dig back and re-check..I know all of our boats had the "cowboy/western" theme, but now you have me unsure about "my" 36.

Spar Wars, IIRC, was owned by the dealer in Newport, RI-certainly not a factory boat, but I think it did well on the East Coast circuit.

Great catch, Steve! I must be getting old.
Cheers,
S
 
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Sailsteve

Member
Seth,

I owned a 33 in 1982 and totally agree with you about the upwind performance. The boat was on its side in anything over 10 kts. I really think that the 36 is a totally different animal. Mine is old, but it sails just great.

Best,

Steve
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
What do you have now

Steve,

What do you sail now? Are you a West Coast person? Did you know the guy who bought Outlaw from the factory?

Over...
S
 

Sailsteve

Member
Outlaw

Seth,

You and I have emailed in the past. I am on the east coast. I owned a new from the factory 33 from 1982 until 1985. It was a dark green hull with an improbably high IOR rating considering its designer. It was over canvased and under ballasted. I raced CETACEA for three years on Western Long Island Sound with little success. In the light air she was a rocketship, but in anything heavier than 10-12 knots she was on her side. I used to ask potential crew members their weight not with the hope of keeping it low, but looking instead for fat guys as meat on the rail.

Before I bought the 33 I had sailed on a 36. That experience in the 1981 Manhasset Bay YC Fall Series sold me on the boat and the design. I was disappointed by the 33. It was not the same experience.

About five years ago I found a used 1981 36 for sale. I jumped on it, as it was always the boat I really wanted. It needed some TLC and I have been slowly restoring her. I think I have learned more about boat maintenance than I could have ever hoped. She's an old boat, but she sails beautifully to weather. I haven't raced her too much as I also own a J-24, but I would like to see if I can get her out there on something a bit longer than an around the buoys affair this summer.

My biggest problem with the 36 came in the summer of 2004 when she was struck by lightning at her mooring. Nothing physical happened to the boat, but all the electronics got blown out and the cabin wiring fried in a number of places. I had to remove the headliner and re-wire the boat. I am currently replacing the cloth headliner with 3/16" teak marine plywood. It is looking great. I replaced all my electronics and more on EBAY for a fraction of the cost of buying new.

I have a question that you may be able to answer... The two cockpit drains exit the boat at the bottom of the transom. The drains go through two large hoses. The hoses on my boat leak and I need to replace them. When the boat is under way at hull speed the transom sucks down below the surface of the and at the end of a day of sailing the bilge is full of many gallons of water. The only problem is that there is almost no way of getting back there without ripping out the back of the quarterberth or hiring a midget. Any suggestions?

Hope you are well...

Steve
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Of course I remember!

I remember now!-Too bad we never got the 33 right-the 36 is simply a much better all around boat-you described the 33 as well or better than I could!

FWIW, a well set up 36 could win ANY PHRF/Americap event-including Key West-There are no all around boats in that rating band with better performance over as wide a range of conditions and sailing angles-or if there are, they are very few in number-Of course, to win at that level you would need a perfect bottom, prop, the right sails in great condtion, and updated deck hardware. On the other hand, you will need ALL of these to win at that level no matter what boat you are sailing-so nothing special on that front.
I'd go a bit further and shorten the wheel ratio to .75:1 and get the biggest wheel that will fit back there, and up the sizes of the primaries. Even after doing this, if you find a decent used 36RH, you will have a winning boat for a fraction the cost of anything new!
Events like BIRW, NYYC Cruise, Edgartown Regatta, Marblehead Race week, Annapolis-Newport, Marblehead-Halifax would all be well within reach to win-even today..

As for the drains-it has been a long time, but I thought you could get to the hoses by crawling back via the cockpit seat locker opposite the side with the Q berth. Do you have one of these? Of course I was 22 years old when I last crawled back there, and only weighed about 150-might be tough now...Are you saying the bilge is filling from the leaking hoses, and that if the hoses no longer leaked you would not have the problem? That is what I think you are saying but I want to be sure....I have some recollection of access via that cockpit locker and also through the back of the Q-berth-but I may be wrong..sorry-maybe take some pics when weather permits?

cheers,
S
 

Sailsteve

Member
The 36

Seth,

I learned a bit of history about my boat (#18). Its first owner was commodore of the NYYC and tricked it out to full bore race. The boat has hydraulics (backstay, boom and babystay). I actually have a few of the original sails (Whew are they ever old!).

There's a lot I would need to do to make the boat competitive again in larger format races. The previous owner canibalized her. He removed the secondary cockpit winches and two cabin top winches and put them on his new boat. Current thinking seems to be to work a boat with fewer winches and more sheet stoppers. That would probably work for me on this boat. I don't know what happened to the running backstays if in fact there ever were any. I would need a much lighter spinnaker pole because the current one probably weighs more than you did as a young man when you were crawling back into the cockpit locker. Most of all I need new sails. The main is an old rust colored Kevlar thing. I had full battens sewn in by my local Doyle loft on City Island, and a track and car system to ease raising and lowering the main. The roller furling jib was made in the Reagan era and needs to be destroyed in the pursuit of national security. I have two old spinnakers and oddly they seem to be in decent shape (don't know their vintage, but they were made by Hood during the first Roosevelt administration). I might buy at least a new main and #1 before the summer if I have the cash. Question: does PHRF reward a roller furled jib with more time? and is there a way to make a speedy roller furled #1 ?

Yes, the boat seems to ship water while moving at hull speed. The exit drains go below the surface of the water when she's moving at 6 knots. I'm not sure where in those hoses there is a break, but it is the only place I can figure out where water might be coming in. I also notice a rise in the bilge level after a heavy rain, which would also indicate that the cockpit may be draining directly into the bilge. When the boat is covered for the winter the bilge remains dry.

Oh boy, so many things to do and soooooooo little time!

Steve
 

Sailsteve

Member
One more thing...

Seth...

The boat also has a custom keel designed by Britton Chance. It is six inches deeper than the factory keel and has a slightly curved trailing edge. I think this was done by the first owner.

S
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
RH36 scoop

Cool-
Here are some thoughts:
1). Lose the baby stay hydraulics-I would move the cylinder inside the boom and use it for an outhaul/flattener, or just get rid of the cylinder all together, and plug that "channel" of the hyd. system.. I would make up a quick connect babystay for use when cruising, but forget it while racing.

2). Carbon spinn pole-YES
3). The trend is certainly to work with fewer winches and more stoppers, but put some real thought into the layout-it can be great or a disaster-I'll be glad to help when the time comes.

4). Running backs-when cruising, you don't need 'em unless you are out in the Gulf Stream, and in this mode I would keep the babystay slightly loaded up.. When racing, lose the babystay and use the runners aggressively-they are like a "gas" pedal-they can make HUGE changes in speed when used in conjunction with the backstay and vang. Tacking is much faster without the baby stay. It is a royal pain when doing a lot of tacking-and beats up the sail as well.

5). A new max girth main and an AP #1 are of course CRITICAL if you want to race-and if you want to do this on a budget-get an AP asymmetrical spinnaker-full sized-this will cover you from .5 oz. conditions until you don't want to carry a kite anymore, and you will be closer to optimal performance than you would by having a conventional .75 oz up in .5 oz .conditions.
The only "hole" you will have (at least until your crew is sailing at Grand Prix level) will be for windy, tight reaching conditions, where you would need a smaller flatter kite(hopefully an A-kite)-this will double as a heavy runner, too. You will find these sails help a LOT in those heavy rolly-poly IOR terror conditions. They will reduce the inertia of rolling back and forth, and hence be faster (also a better shaped sail).
6). SOME PHRF regions DO give a 3-6 second credit for a furler-but may have some limitations on what headsails you can fly-need to check your local PHRF board.
7). Speedy furled #1? That depends on what your definition of "is" is. But seriously...Compared to other boats doing the same thing-yes- a well built genoa with a foam luff insert will have a reasonably good shape when furled-even down to 50% or more of the unfurled size. The real problem is not that it is a furler-and this is an important concept: The shape and fabric weight of a sail designed to be fast in conditions where a #1 would be flown,
say 0-15 knots TWS (or 12 ish if you are light in rail meat) will NOT be very happy in 18-20 or more. There will be too much draft and the sail will be loaded beyond what the fabric should have to deal with. The solution is to overbuild the sail structurally, and go a bit heavier on the base weight. The result will be a sail much better suited for use when partially furled, but won't be very fast in the conditions where it should be at its' best-this is the dilemma.

I like the idea of a furling 130-142 (ish)% Genoa-this is a sail that "kicks in" at about 10 knots TWS-where the loads get bigger in a hurry, and are quite a bit flatter than a real #1-so this sail is going to be much better when used furled to even 80% of LP (a #4). If you sail in a breezy area, you might get credit for the furler, or the smaller LP sail, or maybe both, and accept you will be off the pace in really light air.
Any furling sail-even a racing furler, will never be as fast as a purpose built sail for the conditions, and I would not try and race with any seriousness with a furling #1 against boats with non-furling #1's, who can then downshift to a #2 or #3. But I would try it with a furling #2...make any sense?

As far as the leak goes, though, seems like you would not be taking on water if the hoses did not have a failure at some point. From what you describe, it might be where the hoses attach with hose clamps to the "tube" on the inside of the boat where the transom cutouts are. The fiberglass could have cracked(I suspect this is the case), or the hoses may just have become brittle and cracked (we hope so)-either way, with new hoses properly attached, nothing should go in the bilges or interior, and on that boat I doubt anything should siphon back into the cockpit when heeled or "settled" when near top speed-I actually remember doing those hoses myself to meet ORC draining time specs for Transpac-Are you sure you can't get at them through the cockpit locker? ( I think I recall having to go down there to set the prop when racing, too).

TOO cool about the keel!!!! This elliptical keel was the rage in the late 80's-early 90's-they were much thinner and faster-don't tell PHRF:devil:

Speaking of Brit Chance, does anyone remember what Ted Turner said to him when he first saw the 12 Meter "Mariner" out of the water? Please post your answers, E-gang!

Sorry to be so long-winded!
Seth Morrell
813 S. Euclid Ave.
Oak Park, IL 60304
 

Sailsteve

Member
Brit Chance

Seth,

I Googled Britton Chance and I got a lot of hits for a sailor medalist from the 1952 Olympics. He was born in 1913 and was some kind of a brilliant scientist ... is this the same guy who designed my keel or is it a son or someone else.

What did Turner say?

S
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Britton Chance, JR

Brit Sr, was born in 1913, the son is the yacht designer; not sure which one sailed in 1952. Chance was one of the most innovative US designers of the 70's, and drew some GREAT boats-one of my all time favs was "Resolute Salmon" a 37 footer which won the 1 ton worlds in Marseille, late 70's or early 80's-but there were many famous yachts-Ondine (the 72 footer) among others. He was not afraid to use daggerboards rather than fixed keels on even very big boats-and got some great results..

Now for the famous quote. Upon seeing the "security" blanket removed from Mariner while she was waiting to be launched, Turner took one look at the boat (with an unusual and ultimately slow squared-off stern section), turned to Brit and said: "Damn, Brit-even turds are pointed at both ends"!!!

Gotta love the "mouth of the South"...

S
 
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Seth,
I think the corrrect answer you are looking for from Mr. Turner was," Jesus, Brit, even a turd is tapered at both ends!"
Morgan Stinemetz
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Humbly corrected

Thanks Morgan,

I should have said ".....or words to that effect" after the quote-I believe you are 100% right-I stand corrected. I think I was overdoing the multi-tasking; doing the "E" thing while working...as they said in Brokeback Mountain "I just can't quit you" (or words to that effect). Think I will sign off for a while.

Your humble servant,

S
 
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