Why are fin keel shapes so different....?

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Graham. We are still quite new to our boat, hull #637, which we bought in April, 2006 and keep in Nanaimo. But we still live in Edmonton (2 years til retirement), so don't get to sail as much as we would like.
Frank.
 

Mike.Gritten

Member III
Frank,

Graham is being VERY modest. He has one of the prettiest Ericsons I have ever seen. She looks like she just came off the showroom floor. Hmmmm....I'm just a sucker for those dark blue hulls!
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
I hear you but...

Hiya Sven,

As to the question at hand, I still don't see why a deep keel-in and of itself, could ever be considered less desireable(except for shoal draft cruising). Your point about area and all that make sense, but as I will explain below-the keel is just a part of the big picture as to what defines a boats' sailing characteristics..taking just the depth issue, for a given area, yes-you can go thin and deep, or long and shallow(er). One style gives some very desireable benefits: better pointing and downwind and light-air performance compared to the other style. The other MIGHT HELP in directional stability, at the expense of the other benefits....BUT I submit this is a very personal choice as to which is more valuable. With the reasonably large number of offshore miles under my belt (of course I am no Guy Stevens!), I know which I would choose!

I am not really taking issue with what you say, but I would point out that keel shape is only one indicator of a boats' sailing qualities. There are many fin keel boats out there which trim beautifully under sail, and will hold an approximate course indefintely-until upset by a change in wind speed or direction. It is a combination of features that determines how a boat goes through the water. Also, for passage making-the 23's design brief certainly did not include this as a prerequisite, and I think things like interior room, maybe some storage, and other things took a higher profile. This boat is a day sailer/coastal cruiser. So, what you have seen is not simply a function of your keel. I can assure you that there are quite a number of fin keelers-some of them very modern, which are very stable in that respect (directional stability).

Skegs in front of rudders-Well....as a person who has had 3- yes, 3 skegs fail in the open ocean, twice exposing the leading edge of the rudder to the water, causing the horizontal pintle plate (which holds the vertical bolts) to move back and forth, which elongated the bolt holes, which led us to have to pump 45 minutes on the hour for 2.5 days the last time it happened between Roadtown and Caracas, I do not view this as a "solution" at all. At least not on its' own merits. I feel that a properly engineered ruddder attachment is just fine with or without a Skeg-and this to me is something to be VERY WARY of when considering buying a boat which has one-just as wary as you would be in completely checking out the rudder attachment method on a boat without one that was being considered for offshore work. The boat I was on was a VERY well known and highly regarded production boat considered to be well suited for offshore sailing(except for the skeg, of course!). The fatal flaw is that since it had the skeg as part of the design, a different approach to securing the rudder to the hull was employed. As long as the skeg was intact, the attachment posed no problems. But, once the skeg failed (it was not strong enough apparently), the entire mechanism was compromised. Also note that the skeg failed in the open ocean-without hitting anything-2 times-and 2 times it was repaired at a yard (2 different yards) under phone support form the factory. The last time, 2.5 days out from Caracas, was under the same conditions (beam reaching in the trades), and when we hauled on arrival in Venezuela, the factory (under threats from a very unhappy owner) sent 2 guys down there to re-engineer the whole system. This last repair stuck-AFAIK. I left the boat 3 months later. On this boat, the skeg would not have provided any meaningful protection for the rudder in a collision or grounding. Done right, they can help, but are not a panacea.

Lastly, the comment was made that the (your) boat went its' own way when the autopilot was not on. The reality is-for real offshore sailing-not one, but SEVERAL very good autopilots are pretty much required equipment on ANY boat-whether the boat is the "steady on course" type or a "thorougbread". Either way, as you say-six hours to steer is no big deal, but unless you are racing with a full crew, a long passage is very tedious if someone must stay out in the elements and steer all the time....This equipment really evens the playing field when it comes to how a boat behaves in this regard...

Sorry for the long rant-I am not against longer keels and skegs per se, but I have long sinced learned that they do not solve any problems just by being part of the design of the boat, and there are many great sea boats with and without them.

But, at least so far I have not formed any strong opinions about sailing!:devil:

Fair winds!!

S
 
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Sven

Seglare
Seth,

With the reasonably large number of offshore miles under my belt (of course I am no Guy Stevens!), I know which I would choose!

I can't argue with your "miles" as I suspet you have me beat hands down. That is not my point or my intention. I'm positive, without any doubt, no questions asked, that you have raced more miles than I have. As a matter of fact, I'm positive that you have raced more miles than I have cruised since miles is not my measure of enjoyment or accomplishment.

When I sail it is with just me, or a crew including a second person, not eighteen hired winch grinders.

However, I doubt you really mean to propose that the upwind performance advantage offered with a deep fin keel is so far superior to the altertnatives that the additional safety of a full or longer keel offers are rendered moot. If that is indeed your point I'll spend the next couple of weeks gathering the experienced evidence needed to pulvarize, oblitorate, vaporize, demolish or otherwise ridicule your proposition. Assuming I can find the time :)

Racing is great for tuning your abilities and making design progress, but for the serious sailor it is merely a diversion.


-Sven
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Please don't let me be misunderstood....

Sven,

Please accept my apologies if I said something offensive to you-that was not my intention. I value you as someone who was kind enough to do business with me, and my hope is that you will always be glad you did.

My comments about my "miles" are totally tongue in cheek-One thing I can say is that I rarely take myself or whatever experience I may have too seriously. I have been humbled by boats and the sea too many times to be full of myself.

None of the scenarios I have referred to in this thread include sailing with a full crew of big guys.

I never meant to suggest that the advantages of ANY configuration render any others moot. I DID mean to say, and this is the important point-is that there are no absolutes when it comes what is desireable in an offshore boat. And even more so, the keel configuration is not something you can isolate from the overall design-it must function as a whole. That is why some of the WORST sea boats ever built have full keels and some of the best have deep fins-and vice versa...you simply cannot look at one feature in a vacuum. This is the main point I meant to convey-and not much more.

So, while I certainly don't want to risk being pulverized and obliterated, I guess I look at it differently than you(but not from a racing point of view)-I do not see fin keel vs long keel as 2 ends of a spectrum-nor do I accept the proposition that the mere fact of a longer shallower keel implies any additional safety or stability. It does not.

If I were to state my personal preference, it would be for a modern hull shape of moderate displacement, with a reasonably deep fin keel, but with a hull shape/keel configuration that produced good directional stability. On boats of about 45 feet and under, I would even opt for an outboard rudder!!!! It is very easy to carry and install a spare if needed...makes for a more self-sufficient boat....

Having said all this, my personal preference for a more performance oriented boat for offshore sailing does not come from a racing perspective, but a safety perspective. I know people differ on this point in terms of degree, but there is little doubt that the potential for damage increases exponentially with the number of hours a boat is exposed to bad weather, and those that have the speed to move away from severe weather will sufer less damage and risk. In some cases, there may a penalty in terms of a more robust motion, but I also think this is exaggerated by many. Unless we are talking boats like the Volvo 70's-with very violent motion, most moderate displacement performance oriented boats give a very acceptable ride at sea.

The men and women who race 60 foot and larger boats around the world alone or doublehanded probably do not consider this activity a diversion, and I would also offer that almost every technological advance enjoyed by offshore cruisers today is the result of things discovered on racing boats.

This does mean the experiences of racers are any more valid than those of cruisers, or vice versa. Any time spent at sea in a small sailboat-racing or cruising, is valuable time.

Most important to me, however, is to respect all types of sailing (and I do), and whatever positions I may take are based strictly on the experiences I have had with full realization that there are no (or very few) absolute rules when it comes to yacht design, or sailing technique. I don't claim to right about everything-I just offer my perspective-it is up to each of us to absorb as much info as we can, and make our own decisions.

However, if you still feel the need, fire away!!!:D :egrin:
S
 
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Martin King

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
]occasion I got to talk keel design with a real Who’s Who list of yacht designers & naval artichokes. In regards to the BK style delta keel the feeling was that shape exhibited a lot of the desirable characteristics of the elliptical planform while being somewhat easier to manufacture and a lot easier to attach to the hull due to the larger/longer keel root

The most accurate thing written in this thread.

Martin....who has a boat with an outboard rudder.
 

Brisdon

Inactive Member
One factor in the transition from the swept graceful keels of the 70's to the Delta keels of the eighties was simply the difference in structure. Those seventies keels, (like the one on my 35-2) were made of fiberglass with internal lead. They needed a stout connection to the boat that flowed without a crease on the forward edge. Otherwise it would break open and let in water. The Delta shaped keels are solid lead pieces bolted on the the exterior of the boat. Because they are heavier (per volume), they can be smaller. Because they are smaller, they are less drag, so now they can be shaped just as the weight is needed, and not so artisticly. When I look at the new production boats at the boat shows, it's clear to me that the evolution is too often driven to perfect profitability and not to perfect the sailboat. I'll stick with my E35. For a boat that came off the drawing board in 1969, it's not at all dated in lines or in performance. I wonder how these new Hunters and Beneteaus are going to hold up to the test of time.
 

chasandjudy

chas and judy
compare? cat 30 to E 30+

Seth, and others: I appreciate your orientation towards performance. Although I have raced in the past, I now enjoy more peaceful cruising; however, I subscribe to the old adage that whenever two sailboats are within sight of each other, the race is on.

My friend owns a 1984 Catalina 30, and I own an Ericson 30+. Because we both keep our boats on the BC coast, and have not been able to coordinate a trip to sail the boats together, we don't know how they compare performance-wise. But we talk alot about our two boats from various perspectives. While I acknowledge that the Catalina is more roomy with better storage space, I am hopeful/confident that my Ericson will be just a bit faster than his Catalina--even though I don't race anymore.:D (Unfortunately, I will be disadvantaged a bit because he has a 135% headsail compared to my 125%, so I'll have to be a bit better at sail trim. :egrin: )

While I agree with Sven that a number of factors contribute to quality of a boat, performance is high on the list for many of us--so keep your comments on performance coming!

Frank.

Your Ericson 30+ will outsail a Catalina 30, 32, and give a 36 a bad time boat for boat You will find your 125% headsail clears your top spreaders enough so you can poi8nt higher and out foot him down wind he has a larger spinnaker but his hull speed is slower you can out sail him. My headsail is a 133% in order to clear the spreaders' I just bought a new main 2plus 2 from Shorline sails in Toronto this is a cruising sail but since received delivery I have come in second in the last long distance race at CFSA and have two first in div2 at CFSA Esquimalt Sqdn. I also have but an adjustable back stay on. Frank next time your on the island give me a call 250 478-3669 or cel 888 4503 will gam about E-30+'s I have also put in8 drawers in my E30+ (makes cruising far more comfortable and I use the extra water tank farward. Give me a call.

Charles and Judy Eden E30+:egrin:
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Charles, thanks for your reply. Where did you install the 8 extra drawers on your boat? While I really like our boat, the shortage of storage space is the one significant drawback that I have discovered about the E30+, so I may have to make similar changes to accommodate our storage needs.
Thanks again.
Frank.
 
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