Why are fin keel shapes so different....?

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Leaving aside the obvious differences between full/shoal/wing/fin keels, I've noticed that the fin keels on the various Ericson models are quite different--some quite swept back, others (like my E30+) more vertical and triangle-shaped. :confused:

I know that keel placement and shape may need to be different to ensure that the weight is in the right place to build a balanced boat, but in my naivete, I am thinking that there should be sort of an ideal shape--like swept back and eliptical--to promote water flow, etc.

Can anyone shed any light on why the fin keels of the various Ericson models are shaped so differently? Would they have built them the same in retrospect, or did they learn along the way, so that later models are more 'correct' than earlier ones?

Thanks,
Frank.
 

Jeff Asbury

Principal Partner
-- Keel Types --

-- Keel Types --

This is from http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/advice.htm

Full Keel - This is where the entire keel and ballast is fixed to the bottom of the boat, you can't raise or lower it. Pros: A lot more headroom in the cabin because there is no trunk, ususally very good ultimate stability (the ability to right itself, even from full turtle). Cons: When you run aground, you can't just raise the keel to free yourself, you have to employ interesting tactics like getting a crewman to hang on the boom, and then swing out over the side.

Wing Keel - This is like the full keel, only it has a small wing at the bottom. Pros: The wing is supposed to help the keel, so it can be slightly smaller, or perform better. Cons: If you get the wing stuck in the mud, it is harder to free than a regular full keel, or a keel with a bulb.

Shoal Keel - Like a full keel, all the ballast is permanently stored in a keel below the hull, but it is considerably shorter. Pros: You can sail in much shallower water, and you have more cabin space like the full keel. Cons: Because the keel is shorter, it tends to "slip" a bit, so when beating to windward, it won't sail as high as deeper keeled boats. Deep skinny keels are more effecient than short fat shoal keels, so it won't be as fast as a comparible boat with a deep keel. Running the bow up on the beach can be a problem depending on the shore angle, and the action of the waves. You really need to anchor a shoal keel in water deep enough so the keel doesn't contact the ground, because if the keel is sitting on the sand / mud, the wave action will make it wiggle and dig it's own trench. Then when you want to leave, it can be difficult to get the keel out of it's trench. Also you must take into consideration the tides, if you are going to stay for a while and the tide is going out, it might drop your keel deeper in the mud forcing you to stay till the next high tide. Tip: One technique to free yourself is for one of you pull on a halyard to heel the boat over, and the other person pushes.
 

Sven

Seglare
Frank,

That's a very good question. As it turns out, a sailboat is a really complicated engineering and aesthetics compromise and any ideal in one situation is not ideal for another. Unlike airplanes which exist in one medium and have fairly well understood ideal shapes (for any given speed regimen and construction type), a sailboat exists at the rough interface of two mediums; fluid water and gaseous air.

The bottom line is that places like Stephens Institute of Technology and other naval architecture institutions try to find the ideals by running lots of scale model tank tests, but those tests are not cheap. So we get boats where the designer experiments a bit every now and then, probably with some underlying intuitive justification for why the new design "should" be better. Sometimes the designer has a breakthrough, like the winglets on the 12-Meter boats, but most of the time there is no real advantage or disadvantage.

(I don't remember if the keel winglets preceeded winglets on aircraft, but I'd be surprised if they did since the well understood aerodynamics of aircraft shold have made their utility obvious)

As long as they look pretty they will probably work ok, that's why Ericsons are such beautiful designs :)



-Sven
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Actually they are not so different

In fact, each "generation" of the King designs share very common keel shapes.

For example, the 23/old 25 had keels that very very similar to each other-and these boats were intended for the same type of market and use.

Then, the 27,29,32,35-II, 37, 39, & even the 46, all from the early-mid 70's, had very similar keels to each other-even though the 37/39/46 had more rating influence to the hull and keel shape, they all have the same general appearance-with the 27-32 being a subgroup and the 35/II-46 being another.

In the later 70's, the 34T/3/4 tonner and 30-II saw the introduction of the "delta" keel, which became the King standard for the E-boats through the end of production, and ultimately included the 25+/26, 28+/28, 30-II/30+,32, 34, 35-3 and all the various 38's. Later, there were shoal and winged versions, but the standard keel shapes were very consistent.

So, if you look at each generation or vintage of E-boat, you will see the keels are extremely similar. They reflect BK's thinking on lift/drag, CG placement, and overall sailing qualities.

Not that I paid attention!:D

S
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for your replies so far--very interesting information. Seth, do you know why they changed to the "delta" keel--i.e. what were the expected advantages of that keel over the earlier ones, especially as you mentioned they had been fairly consistent in their design of the earlier 70s keel on the various models? And how would both the earlier and the "delta" keels compare with what is being built today--ie. are they still regarded as good designs, or have they fallen out of favour for some reason--if so, why?
Thanks again.
Frank.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Fin Fun

And while the Ron Holland guys with their Petersen shape fins finish racing the Delta keel gang for second place, the Eliptical keel Olson crews will already be back at the dock and up at the pub drinking their first round of micro brew! :rolleyes:
(Sorry, couldn't resist stirring up the pot a bit!)
:devil:

Actually, I'll sail on any on 'em and enjoy it just as much.

Loren in PDX
( whose middle-aged Olson is always fast, in his imagination)

------Which leads to a great line from an episode of Futurama:
Dr Zoidberg: "Give it to me straight, Professor. Is it fin rot?
It's fin rot, isn't it? Tell me it's not fin rot!"
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
I agree, great article that answers my questions from above really well, and provides interesting historical information. Thanks again for posting it.
Frank.
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Progress, progress

For the early 70's type boats, the 27-29-32-35-II, etc, these were considered modern keels AT THE TIME. This was at a time when many boats still had full length keels, and the "fin" keel was the "latest craze". The obvious advantages were lower wetted surface, lower CG for more stability, more lift from a more efficient foil shape. The thinking of the day in terms of hull shapes were more full and rounded shapes (look at this vintage of hulls compared to the newer boats-the new ones have finer entry, less wetted surface, and flatter bottoms).

Partly as a result of the emerging IOR rule for ocean racers, and the marketing "cache" surrounding them, Ericson and other builders introduced new models designed to take advantage of the rule-which means using shapes which yield good performance for the rating. Because of the way a boat is measured under the IOR, there evolved a certain style of boat-the "IOR" boat, which in those days meant a tall, high aspect masthead rig, fine bow sections with a flat forefoot, and a pinched transom. Many of these features were not ideal for overall speed and seakindliness, and some were, but it did yield the best performance FOR THE RATING. Most boats designed to the IOR rule-regardless of the designer, shared many common features and shapes.

Reducing wetted surface is key to speed, and having the most optimal foil shapes in the keel and rudder help with windward ability. Add to this the need to maximize stability and you can see why keels got deeper and narrower-and the modern fin keel became the norm. Just like a Darwinian evolutionary chart of man, you couild draw a chart beginning with a full keel boat from the 50's, the early fin shapes of the late 60's and 70's, and finally the keels of the late 70's and 80's. You will see the transition from heavy boats with full keels and low aspect rigs to progressively lighter boats with deeper keel and taller rigs.

In the early 90's the influence of the IOR rule had faded, and boats got better again. We kept the good stuff: deeper keels with good foil shapes, but smoothed out the hull shapes since they no longer were concerned with certain measurement points to "fool" the rule into thinking the boat was slower than it was. Now boats could benefit from the gains in some areas without the nasty handling characteristics that some (not all) IOR and IOR- type boats had. We even started adding bulbs to the bottom of keels to get the weight lower while keeping area to a minimum!

Nowadays, we are seeing water ballast and canting keels-another step on the evolution chart, and boats get better anad faster all the time.

There is a lot more to this story-the advances in construction, engineering and materials had a lot to do with this process.


Long way to say that deep keels with nice airfoil shapes are faster and more weatherly than shallow fat ones. Progress and science drives all of of this, and the more scientifically we were able to look at a boats' design and evaluate the good and bad points the better we got at developing newer and better designs.

The "delta" keel is really BK's variation on the fin keel of the late 70's, and I think the forward sweeping trailing edge had something to do with reducing end plate effect at the bottom of the keel, and keeping area down while maintaining a low CG. Sort of like an elliptical keel, rudder or airplane wing (Supermarine Spitfire!).Martin may recall some more details about the delta shape, but it is essentially BK's take on the concept-the Holland/Peterson fin keels (which later became elliptical) were most common, but King's "delta" in actual fact was probably not much different than any other similar fin keel-there is more than one way to skin a cat!

Hope this is not too boring!

S
 
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Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Seth, thanks for the detailed reply. While the Ted Brewer article that John added in his post provided a history of keel design, you have added the history on how the boats evolved, to give us a good overview of how the design concepts interact and evolve over time. For those of us who want to really understand as much as we can about our boats--the design, sailing performance and the mechanical challenges, your information is both interesting and very helpful.
Thanks,
frank.
 

Sven

Seglare
Hope this is not too boring!

On the contrary, your insights into the Ericson evolution are quite interesting.

The one thing I would change, or at least point out, is your focus on racing. Off the top of my head I think there are 5 axis for the design trade space:

- Aesthetics
- Cost
- Safety
- Comfort
- Speed

in no particular order. Note that those are not independent variables so it is not an ideal tradespace breakdown.

While speed is number one for racing, safety and comfort can rate higher for cruising (speed can mean safety, as Steve Dashew keeps stressing ... not independent variables :). A deep fin is often an advantage for racing, but is often not ideal for long passages. The evolutionary pressures of the specific application domain will determine where on the 5 axis the ideal design falls.

The beauty of the Ericson line is in the compromise that BK managed to strike in optimizing his designs along all 5 axis.

Keep the historical insights coming !



-Sven
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Guilty as charged

Sven,

Thanks for the comments. I freely admit I have a perpective which is more performance oriented than others.

I also agree with Steve Dashew about speed having a huge impact on safety. However, in the keel discussion-at least from my point of view, there was no focus on racing except to point out how and why the marketing decisions were made to evolve the designs is a particular way. The larger boats in the E-line back then were touted as having some guidance or influence from the ocean racing boats of the day. This is what Ranger, Cal, and others did with great sucess-even if it were not entirely true-a large part of the sailing public was impressed with designs derived from ocean racing boats.

Lastly, though-I DO feel performance is a major factor in the overall desireability of any boat-racer or cruiser. The evolution of keel shapes industry wide was gone towards deeper and better performing keels in general, which has made boats better performers overall. Sure, less useful in some sailing locales with shallow water, but these areas often have boats with keels that have been modified for this.

The only thing I was not clear on is why would a deeper keel be less desireable for offshore or long passagemaking? I can see it for Florida, Chesapeake, the Bahamas, but offshore? Please explain. Unless you will be sailing frequently in shallow water, the deeper keel makes for a stiffer boat-which in turn means more sail carrying ability and/or more storage capacity..

Enjoy!!
S
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Seth, and others: I appreciate your orientation towards performance. Although I have raced in the past, I now enjoy more peaceful cruising; however, I subscribe to the old adage that whenever two sailboats are within sight of each other, the race is on.

My friend owns a 1984 Catalina 30, and I own an Ericson 30+. Because we both keep our boats on the BC coast, and have not been able to coordinate a trip to sail the boats together, we don't know how they compare performance-wise. But we talk alot about our two boats from various perspectives. While I acknowledge that the Catalina is more roomy with better storage space, I am hopeful/confident that my Ericson will be just a bit faster than his Catalina--even though I don't race anymore.:D (Unfortunately, I will be disadvantaged a bit because he has a 135% headsail compared to my 125%, so I'll have to be a bit better at sail trim. :egrin: )

While I agree with Sven that a number of factors contribute to quality of a boat, performance is high on the list for many of us--so keep your comments on performance coming!

Frank.
 

JMS

Member II
The "delta" keel is really BK's variation on the fin keel of the late 70's, and I think the forward sweeping trailing edge had something to do with reducing end plate effect at the bottom of the keel, and keeping area down while maintaining a low CG. Sort of like an elliptical keel, rudder or airplane wing (Supermarine Spitfire!).

I did a stint at Keelco back in the ’80’s, so, on occasion I got to talk keel design with a real Who’s Who list of yacht designers & naval artichokes. In regards to the BK style delta keel the feeling was that shape exhibited a lot of the desirable characteristics of the elliptical planform while being somewhat easier to manufacture and a lot easier to attach to the hull due to the larger/longer keel root.
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks for that additional information. I guess Bruce King was earning his keep in designing the delta keel!:egrin:
Frank.
 

Sven

Seglare
Hi Seth,

The only thing I was not clear on is why would a deeper keel be less desireable for offshore or long passagemaking?

As you pointed out, wetted area needs to be minimized. If your keel is deeper it will also need to be shorter (fore-aft) to keep the same area and comparable lift. The result is often a more nimble craft which is great for racing (can turn circles around the competition) but it is a negative when what you want is comfortable and "straight course" motion. If you are cruising you are less likely to find it acceptable to have to be on top of a spirited thuroughbred every second just to stay on course. Skeg-hung rudders can give you back some of the stability (and help protect the rudder at the same time) but they add no-lift surface area.

La Petite is a good example of the problem, and she doesn't even have a deep fin :)

She sails like a dingy, fast, leaps about as she pleases and is a pure joy. She is a pure joy until you are not on autopilot and want to take a bearing on a container ship. The second you take your eyes off the horizon, looking down for the hand bearing compass in the bag, she'll take matters into her own hands and be off on a new heading. For our short crossings of 6 to 10 hours it is no big deal but it would be a royal pain for real passage making.

BTW, if it weren't for kelp and lobster pots I suspect we would already have seen forward swept keels as that shape has proven itself superior in experimental flight. Maybe they have already been tried ?

Best regards,


-Sven
 

Graham Cole

The Zoomer
Hi Frank et al,

I have 30+ #635 (1984) and I sail out of Vancouver. My friend has a 1980 Catalina 30 tall rig and we have had impromptu races in English Bay. I seem to have no trouble outperforming her boat and I am not really trying too much. Just came back from Alexandra Isl. on Monday 15-18 kts on the beam and 7.2 kts on gps and paddlewheel.
Cheers,
Graham
 

Frank Langer

1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Thanks, Graham...

Graham, that's great news! And my friend has the regular rig, not the tall rig which your friend has--so even with his slightly larger headsail, I should be fine (I think I'm a bit more attentive to sail trim than he is as well). Now I'm really looking forward to taking our two boats out! :egrin:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

By the way, how do you find the E30+ in the Vancouver/Strait of Georgia area--does your boat perform as well as you hoped, and would you buy her again for sailing in that area?

Frank.
 

Graham Cole

The Zoomer
Hi Frank,

I really like my boat- just right for two but a bit tight in the v- berth and galley. A great boat for our area but I would wish for more power on these days when you have to motor uphill. I would replace her with a 38-200 but I would never get a slip as nice as mine for a bigger boat! I'll try to send you a photo back channel.
Graham
 
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