We have a Universal M25XP, with glow plug button. It's common when pushing the starter button (after holding the glow plug button in for about the right amount of time, and continuing to hold it) to get no response-- engine doesn't turn, no noise. Then, a few seconds, or minutes later, doing the same thing produces a quick turnover and start, as though nothing's wrong. This doesn't happen every time, but enough that you know something isn't quite right. Does it sound like something any of you have dealt with? Thanks.
Start/Start Button Troubleshooting
- Thread starter Mike Loft
- Start date
My first guess is....
Sounds like you might have a bad connection. It's axiomatic that 12 dc volts of potential just does not have much "push" if it runs into even a little bit of corrosion or a slightly loose connection.
Every few years I remove all of the wires, one by one (!), from the backside of our engine panel and clean up each ring connector with a fine wire brush or a bit of emory cloth.
Have you done the Universal service bulletin upgrade of the one undersized wire?
There is a link on this site, if I can just remember the thread title...
Tom, help us!
Anyone else have clues that I have missed??
Loren
Sounds like you might have a bad connection. It's axiomatic that 12 dc volts of potential just does not have much "push" if it runs into even a little bit of corrosion or a slightly loose connection.
Every few years I remove all of the wires, one by one (!), from the backside of our engine panel and clean up each ring connector with a fine wire brush or a bit of emory cloth.
Have you done the Universal service bulletin upgrade of the one undersized wire?
There is a link on this site, if I can just remember the thread title...
Tom, help us!
Anyone else have clues that I have missed??
Loren
treilley
Sustaining Partner
I agree with Loren about a bad connection. I had a very similar issue after I had forgotten to tightern up a battery connection this year.
Start with any connections that you recently worked on. I knew to check the battery connections because I had just reinstalled the batteries from a long winter.
Start with any connections that you recently worked on. I knew to check the battery connections because I had just reinstalled the batteries from a long winter.
u079721
Contributing Partner
Fairly early on I upgraded the wire size on our boat, and then made the modification so I didn't have to keep the glow plug depressed while pressing the start button. Then at about 10 to 12 years in the starter button began to act up, much like you describe. I just stopped by WM to pick up a replacement starter button, and the problem was solved.
So it could be something difficult, but replacing the starter button itself is a pretty easy fix, so I would give it a try first.
So it could be something difficult, but replacing the starter button itself is a pretty easy fix, so I would give it a try first.
Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
Universal diesel wiring modifications
It took me a while to find it on the "new" site, but here it is:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=116&id=696
It tells of the now well known problem of too small a wire in the engine harness to operate the starter solenoid and how to fix it easily.
Doing these modifications may extend the life of the panel push buttons and key switch. These switches, as previously noted, frequently do cause problems.
I am not a fan of taking apart tight connections to clean until everything else has been tested. They should be checked for tightness, but if tight and taken apart they then become subject to what Tim was saying about the last thing worked on is likely the cause of the current problem. Tight connections that look good are rarely a problem.
It took me a while to find it on the "new" site, but here it is:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=116&id=696
It tells of the now well known problem of too small a wire in the engine harness to operate the starter solenoid and how to fix it easily.
Doing these modifications may extend the life of the panel push buttons and key switch. These switches, as previously noted, frequently do cause problems.
I am not a fan of taking apart tight connections to clean until everything else has been tested. They should be checked for tightness, but if tight and taken apart they then become subject to what Tim was saying about the last thing worked on is likely the cause of the current problem. Tight connections that look good are rarely a problem.
Cory B
Sustaining Member
We had a similar problem. After making sure all the wire connections were good, and doing the wiring "upgrade" mentioned above, it still happened sometimes. But after replacing the push buttons and "ignition" switch it went away. One of the old push buttons practically fell apart in my hands due to corrosion.
The buttons and switch are pretty cheap as far as boat parts go, and easy to replace. Make sure you get them properly rated for the current though... about 18 amps for the glowplugs on ours.
The buttons and switch are pretty cheap as far as boat parts go, and easy to replace. Make sure you get them properly rated for the current though... about 18 amps for the glowplugs on ours.
Fuses may be a problem too
We had electrician to check the same issue (after I re-wired the starter as other suggested) and he traced it back to some semi-dead fuse that had a mind of it's own when to conduct the current and when not to. After replacing it, starter fires every time.
Regards,
Stan
We had electrician to check the same issue (after I re-wired the starter as other suggested) and he traced it back to some semi-dead fuse that had a mind of it's own when to conduct the current and when not to. After replacing it, starter fires every time.
Regards,
Stan
u079721
Contributing Partner
Great point - I should have remembered this. It's been mentioned before, but there is a 20A inline fuse in the starter circuit. At one point I had trouble starting the engine, and thought this fuse was blown (which it sometimes was). Turns out that the fuse was fine, but the fuse holder had corroded from the heat of the engine. Replaced the inline fuse holder and the problem went away. After that I added a new inline fuse holder to my spare parts kit.
So in addition to the wiring, and the button itself, do check the fuse holder.
My Solution - Not New
Only once did my M25 starter solenoid fail to engage before I installed a starter relay at the engine. Mercruiser inboards learned long ago that starter solenoids benefit from a full 12 volts supplied by an engine mounted relay. Total cost about $10 for an automotive starter solenoid relay. Now only the new relay coil current goes thru the starter button at the control panel.
I also did the wiring mod so that the Glo Plugs and Starter Button are independent. Nice for starting a hot engine. Ours also has horribly loud buzzers for low oil pressure and high water temp. Finally I installed another relay to cut out the buzzer whenever the Glo Plugs are energized. Also easy to do and oh so nice on the ears too.
Only once did my M25 starter solenoid fail to engage before I installed a starter relay at the engine. Mercruiser inboards learned long ago that starter solenoids benefit from a full 12 volts supplied by an engine mounted relay. Total cost about $10 for an automotive starter solenoid relay. Now only the new relay coil current goes thru the starter button at the control panel.
I also did the wiring mod so that the Glo Plugs and Starter Button are independent. Nice for starting a hot engine. Ours also has horribly loud buzzers for low oil pressure and high water temp. Finally I installed another relay to cut out the buzzer whenever the Glo Plugs are energized. Also easy to do and oh so nice on the ears too.
jreddington
Member III
I'll jump in and concurr it is probably either a bad glow plug switch, start switch (in original configuration current to the start button needs to pass through the glow plug switch to get to the starter switch), or connection to switch. Current also has to pass through the ignition switch.
When I had this it turned out to be a loose connection to the start button. But while in there, was checking the other connections and making the start wiring modification noted above and the ignition switch fell apart in my hands. Replaced that.
While the undersized wire is an "official" issue, if your engine starts normally when it does start, and is flat dead when it won't start, it is probably a switch or loose wire issue. Correcting that is probably more helpful to make sure you get a solid start solenoid engagement when your battery is low and capacity is marginal.
Also, highly recommend the start modification mentioned above. It takes one switch (and its resistance and possibility for looseness) out of the path from battery to starter solenoid and is ergonomically easier since you don't have to bend over and hold both switches at once to start. In fact, I usually will use the glow plugs for the 1st start of the day, and after that, the engine really doesn't need the glow plugs (unless you are doing frostbite racing) for the rest of the day.
When I had this it turned out to be a loose connection to the start button. But while in there, was checking the other connections and making the start wiring modification noted above and the ignition switch fell apart in my hands. Replaced that.
While the undersized wire is an "official" issue, if your engine starts normally when it does start, and is flat dead when it won't start, it is probably a switch or loose wire issue. Correcting that is probably more helpful to make sure you get a solid start solenoid engagement when your battery is low and capacity is marginal.
Also, highly recommend the start modification mentioned above. It takes one switch (and its resistance and possibility for looseness) out of the path from battery to starter solenoid and is ergonomically easier since you don't have to bend over and hold both switches at once to start. In fact, I usually will use the glow plugs for the 1st start of the day, and after that, the engine really doesn't need the glow plugs (unless you are doing frostbite racing) for the rest of the day.
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Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
The small wire in the harness does not affect the engine's speed in turning over. It mostly affects whether or not the solenoid closes to provide current to the starter. The starter current comes directly from the battery.
What the #16 wire does do is insert a larger than required drop in series with the drops from the three switches on the engine panel. It is the combination of the small wire, old switches, and, perhaps, loose connections that causes the problem.
My three modifications each help with the starting and take very little electrical knowledge to complete.
jreddington
Member III
Tom,
You caught my text before I caught that and edited it. Yes, if there is too much resistance in the total start circuit it will keep the start solenoid from pulling in and closing the actual contacts from the battery to the starter.
You caught my text before I caught that and edited it. Yes, if there is too much resistance in the total start circuit it will keep the start solenoid from pulling in and closing the actual contacts from the battery to the starter.
Lawrence B. Lee
Member III
Test of Time
Starter Woes:
This thread mostly took place at the end of May and we have now had a summer's worth of fun and experience and I was wondering if starter problems that went away stayed away.
That is:
Cory, Did the new starter button cure the problem?
Stan, Was the inline fuse all that needed to be done?
Jerry and Jean, Has the starter relay solved the problem. Is such a relay sort of like a solenoid on the solenoid?
Look to hear from you
Larry Lee
Savannah, GA
Annabel Lee
E32-200
Starter Woes:
This thread mostly took place at the end of May and we have now had a summer's worth of fun and experience and I was wondering if starter problems that went away stayed away.
That is:
Cory, Did the new starter button cure the problem?
Stan, Was the inline fuse all that needed to be done?
Jerry and Jean, Has the starter relay solved the problem. Is such a relay sort of like a solenoid on the solenoid?
Look to hear from you
Larry Lee
Savannah, GA
Annabel Lee
E32-200
Larry,
Yes, absolutely solved our problem. Having a Starter Solenoid located at the engine is Standard Design Practice for the Mercruiser power plants and is really the way Universal should have done it when they built these engines. That way, very little current is switched by the pushbutton starter switch and there is no question that the Starter Motor Solenoid will have adequate voltage applied. The Starter Solenoid should be located close to the Starter Motor. Mine is hung on the side of the exhaust manifold with rubber vibration isolation. As far as added complexity - not an issue. If it ever fails swapping one wire get the setup back to factory original setup. The one I installed came off an old Ford pickup. Buying one from Sierra Marine Parts would probably be a good source.
Yes, absolutely solved our problem. Having a Starter Solenoid located at the engine is Standard Design Practice for the Mercruiser power plants and is really the way Universal should have done it when they built these engines. That way, very little current is switched by the pushbutton starter switch and there is no question that the Starter Motor Solenoid will have adequate voltage applied. The Starter Solenoid should be located close to the Starter Motor. Mine is hung on the side of the exhaust manifold with rubber vibration isolation. As far as added complexity - not an issue. If it ever fails swapping one wire get the setup back to factory original setup. The one I installed came off an old Ford pickup. Buying one from Sierra Marine Parts would probably be a good source.
Chris A.
Member III
Another case
I had the same problem described at the beginning of the thread. I did the "official" re-wire and at first it seemed to solve the problem, but I was occassionally having relapses. At the beginning of this season, I replaced the starter switch and in-line fuse and not a single bad start (so far) this season.
Cheers,
I had the same problem described at the beginning of the thread. I did the "official" re-wire and at first it seemed to solve the problem, but I was occassionally having relapses. At the beginning of this season, I replaced the starter switch and in-line fuse and not a single bad start (so far) this season.
Cheers,
I had similar problems with starting of my '86 E-28 when I purchased it last June. The PO had already made the wiring modifications discussed here, and looked to be a very good job. I switched out the start button, and that completely solved the problem for all of last summer...up until right now. Now, I am having the same issue. I replaced the start button again, but no help. I replaced the 20 amp fuse and still the starter only engages 1 out of 5 times. Both batteries are fully charged.
When the PO made the wiring changes he did 2 additional things.
1. Replaced the ignition key switch with a push/pull switch. He mentioned that this was since the key switch caused problems with corrosion.
2. Since there is no key for the panel, he added a toggle switch inline under the sink that would engage the circuit. That way the engine could not be started (fuel pump activated) without getting inside.
So, I am thinking the next place to look at is these 2 switches mentioned above. Perhaps there are loose connections or corrosion. Or maybe they are not rated for up to 20 amps. Does it make sense that these could be causing the issue? I wasn’t sure if the current to the Solenoid would go through these.
Other things I am thinking of is:
1. Remove the toggle switch, as I am not concerned with someone starting the engine without getting into the boat. This would be 1 less switch to go through.
2. Add a keyed switch back in, but make it also include start. Then, I would remove the Start Button. This would be 1 less switch to go through.
3. Rewire so that that Start Button bypasses the push/pull switch at the panel. Not sure this can be done.
Any help is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Andy
When the PO made the wiring changes he did 2 additional things.
1. Replaced the ignition key switch with a push/pull switch. He mentioned that this was since the key switch caused problems with corrosion.
2. Since there is no key for the panel, he added a toggle switch inline under the sink that would engage the circuit. That way the engine could not be started (fuel pump activated) without getting inside.
So, I am thinking the next place to look at is these 2 switches mentioned above. Perhaps there are loose connections or corrosion. Or maybe they are not rated for up to 20 amps. Does it make sense that these could be causing the issue? I wasn’t sure if the current to the Solenoid would go through these.
Other things I am thinking of is:
1. Remove the toggle switch, as I am not concerned with someone starting the engine without getting into the boat. This would be 1 less switch to go through.
2. Add a keyed switch back in, but make it also include start. Then, I would remove the Start Button. This would be 1 less switch to go through.
3. Rewire so that that Start Button bypasses the push/pull switch at the panel. Not sure this can be done.
Any help is much appreciated.
Thanks,
Andy
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Lawrence B. Lee
Member III
This just in.
"Sherlock" my diesel guy says he found the problem to be a corroded ground wire. Of course, it was on the end of a wire I did not check. Since the terminal I inspected looked good I assumed the other end was ok. Not so says "Sherlock." He tells me that it has fired up everytime since he has gotten hold of it. Of couse, he isn't washing down on a lee shore as the sun goes down and the wind builds really, I say really, needing for the damn thing to start. That's the test.
I will report on my experiences with the clean wire in a month or two.
Larry Lee
Savannah GA
Annabel Lee
E32-200
"Sherlock" my diesel guy says he found the problem to be a corroded ground wire. Of course, it was on the end of a wire I did not check. Since the terminal I inspected looked good I assumed the other end was ok. Not so says "Sherlock." He tells me that it has fired up everytime since he has gotten hold of it. Of couse, he isn't washing down on a lee shore as the sun goes down and the wind builds really, I say really, needing for the damn thing to start. That's the test.
I will report on my experiences with the clean wire in a month or two.
Larry Lee
Savannah GA
Annabel Lee
E32-200