Spinnaker shape question/Pole end pin jam problem

[Geoff Johnson]

Spinnaker shape question

Last weekend I flew for the first time the UK tri-radial spinnaker that came with my boat. I noticed that it seems cut somewhat narrowly (almost concave) in the shoulders. Does this mean it is designed more for reaching that downwind?

 

[Loren Beach]

Shaping the Chute...

Absent a photo under way....
your theory sounds right to me.

OTOH most all-around-usage boats, like yours and mine, tend to come with an "all purpose" cut of chute (at least when the first owner checked the option $$ box for "spinnaker and gear"). Ours came with a compromise shape like this.

All I added was an ATN snuffer.

If I were going to bias the shape at all, for everyday use by duffers like me, I would lean towards a reaching shape, but not too much.
I would want just enough fullness to keep it flying easily downwind, but not so much as to make the screaming reaches too hazardous......

FWIW, the asymetricals get all the ad hype nowadays, but I know of owners that are disillusioned after finding out how limited they are downwind (our area tends to have quite a bit of light air downwind sailing with little chance to jibe out very far because we sail on a river).
From your description, maybe yours was ordered with more of a reaching cut. Does it look anything like the one on the 32-2 on the splash screen rotation on this site?

Best,
Loren

 

[Geoff Johnson]

I was flying my chute with that ATN thingy that goes around the furled jib and dispenses with the pole. That and the snuffer made it painless. One advantage of of flying a tri-radial like this, as opposed to cruising chute, is that you can actually see what's in front of you.

On the subject of the pole, I can't get it off the boat. The forward pin is frozen, probably due to salt. I have squirted every known lubricant in there and whaled on the exposed end of the pin with a punch. What's next, a torch?

 

[Loren Beach]

I've seen this movie already...

"On the subject of the pole, I can't get it off the boat. The forward pin is frozen, probably due to salt. I have squirted eveery known lubricant in there and whaled on the exposed end of the pin with a punch. What's next, a torch?"
_________
Wow, does THIS bring back memories!

When we bought the Olson in '94, it had sat for 3 years growing mold and corrosion, in SF. Both the pole ends were un-openable because the stainless pins had reacted with the aluminum end castings and the SS springs were equally corroded...
When I packed up the boat for trucking back to PDX, I had to unscrew the deck fittings in order to take the pole off the boat. I found one fitting that I could get off with a large phillips screwdriver, and then we tilted the pole upwards, and I could get at the screws on the other fitting, as I remember.

I believe that after soaking it all sorts of stuff, I was able to drive the pin back enough to get it to loosten a bit, with a matching punch. I bought a set of new springs for both ends from Forespar for a couple bucks. Had to cut off the old trip-wires to then extract the pins, by driving them back out thru the end of the casting. I also took the cast ends off he pole. (Note: upon reassembly I filled the pole with foam peanuts to give it pos. floatation.)

I found that the springs formerly were supported by a cast-in ridge that had corroded away and then allowed the remnants of the springs to jam...
I used a drill to slightly deepen and true up the spring area and then put in a "liner" for each spring to bottom out against -- by drilling out the center of a quarter-20 stainless nut, and filing the outside of the nut round, and then inserting it forcefully into the pin shaft. After that, the new spring was introduced, and then the pollished-up pin was inserted from the outer end of the casting, and lastly the new trip wire loop thru the end of the pin secured it in place, "just like factory."
Since my pole was the spendy Forespar Trigger type, I did not have the budget to just replace the ends.

Note that I did not have to use a torch... but that would have been next, after getting the pole home and drilling out the rivets and taking the cast pole ends off....

Note that once you cut off the old trip wire, you can more easily drive the pin OUT thru the end, which is the only way it was meant to be extracted, AFAIK.

I hope this does not sound too confusing...

Best,
Loren in PDX

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Sounds like I have my work cut out for me. If the problem is just corrosion, there might be some hope of knocking the pin back with a punch, but if the problem is a jammed spring I may have to try to cut the pin, maybe with a carbide tile cutting bit on my trusty Dremel.

 

[Loren Beach]

Oops. I forgot something, maybe...

There might be a little roll pin to remove from the outer part of the casting, that keeps the pin from going too far.
I will try to remember to look next time I get down to the boat.



Note two: If you drive the pin forward (i.e. out thru the end) you should not have to cut it. Doing this "unjams" the spring. This would be done after removing the trip wire and the outer roll pin that I think I remember.

Loren

 

[Geoff Johnson]

No need to look, I have the pin (I remember because my punch just clears it). That's a good thought; I'll try to get it out and drive the pin forward. Thanks.

 

[Seth]

Shapes

Hi Geoff,

I've been away for a few days-sorry!
Depending on the vintage, the UK kites often had that look-especially if they are considered "AP" kites. The tru "Runners" had a more conventional shoulder look. They were still decent kites, though. I would not spend much time being concerned about it, and in fact, it looks much worse from on the boat then from off.

Using a symetrical kite without a pole will never be as efficient as a true A-sail in this mode, and they will run even worse than a cruising kite if no pole is used. The reason is that since they are built and shaped the same on both sides, they depend on the pole to provide "shape" on the leading edge, so that you end up with a real luff AND leech. Otherwise you have 2 leeches.

This gets us back to why A-sails are inherently better(all things being equal). An airfoil with a leading AND trailing edge will always be more efficient.

Loren's comment about A-sail owners being unhappy with running performance may be correct, but the problem is not that the sail is assymetric. Any sail, A-sail, or conventional, can be designed as a reacher, runner, or something in between. If the sail is designed as a reacher it won't run well. An A-sail, when used WITH a pole, will be a good running sail, and if the sail was designed as a runner, or even an AP shape, it will run VERY well with the pole. Regadless of the sail, as you sail deeper angles without a pole, the sail will suffer.

So, if you use the UK sail without a pole, you have to expect marginal performance, but it may be better than nothing.

Good sailing!

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Thanks, Seth. I would like to get an A-sail some day, but this one will have to do for the time being. We were doing 5 knots in 7-8 knots apparent on a beam reach. That was a hellava lot better than I could have done with the jib.

The sail looks alot like UK's "tri-radial flasher":

http://www.uksailmakers.com/sails/triflasher.html

 

[gareth harris]

I pulled off the end cap from my pole and soaked it in vinegar for a week before trying to free the pin. I think it made the job less aggravating.
The rest of the job was simliar to what Loren has described. It was easier to provide a twisting force with a mole wrench to break the bond than by pounding with a punch.
Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Thanks everyone. On examination, it is clear I am going to have to pull off the end cap because the trigger pin and the retaining pin are both hidden from view by the chock. So how do you get the end cap off? There don't appear to be any fasteners. It is held on simply by friction? Fortunately I can get one end of the pole off the boat and can, therefore, twist and pull on it. Assuming I am successful, that still leaves the offending end attached to the chock, but at least with access to the underside.

 

[Seth]

Flasher?

Geoff,

You said your sail looked like the UK "Flasher". Please note this very important point:

I was assuming you had a symetrical spinnaker because the term "Tri--Radial Spinnaker" often, if not usually, applies to symetrical spinnakers.

The Flasher IS an Assymetric Cruising Spinnaker, like the Gennaker(North), or APC (Doyle). Like the other sails it is constructed in a Tri-Radial manner (radial panels emanating from each corner), but like these other crusing products it has a true luff. leech, and foot

What matters is the discussion we were having was based on the assumption you were using a symetric, "conventional" spinnaker (meant to be used with a pole) without a pole.

If you had something like a Flasher, then you are in good shape as it stands now...

 

[Geoff Johnson]

If you look at the UK web picture, what they call a "flasher" appears to be a symetrical kite (the tack is flown at the level where the pole end would be.) Anyway, my sail is symetrical (it came with the boat and all of the normal spinnaker gear, which is wedded to the boat at the moment).

 

[Seth]

Flashers

Hi again Geoff,

In the UK ad, you are clearly looking at an A-sail(which the Flasher has always been). The definition of an A-sail is that the leeches are not of equal length (also the shaping is more like a Genoa than a symetrical spinnaker). A symetrical kite MUST have a luff and leech of equal lengths.

In the UK photo, you can see the leech is much shorter than the luff-making it an A-sail.

The location of the tack/pole is not relevant to the definition-since with these assymetric cruising chutes you can choose to sail with or without a pole. A symetrical kite, really needs a pole to fly well.

Hope this helps

 

[Loren Beach]

http://www.uksailmakers.com/flasher2.html

If this is what you have now, and you also have regular spinnaker gear, like a fixed-length pole, foreguy, sheets and guys, and turning blocks.....
Then I guess you have inheirited a combination of stuff.

http://www.uksailmakers.com/sails/matrix.html
Here is a page with a tri-radial spinnaker shown.

If your spinnaker is symetrical, it is not a Flasher (tm).

I have seen sailors flying a standard spinnaker without a pole, but it was not stable. They were just experimenting, in light air.

As to your pole ends, I wonder if they were glued on in the first place? Mine were held on with big SS rivets, FWIW. If glued, I might try a heat gun be fore forcefully pulling the ends off. All this assumes that you can innitially free up at least one end from its chock in order to back out the screws on the remaining chock. Arrgh!

Best,
Loren in PDX

 

[Seth]

As usual, Loren managed to boil my long-windedness into a few concise words! Thanks Loren!

 

[Geoff Johnson]

No I'm pretty sure I have a symetrical chute with narrow shoulders. It works great (stable) on a reach with an ATN Tacker and no pole. As for the pole, no rivets. I'm thinking "winter project" at this point.