Slow leak aft [Dripless Shaft Seal]

[Solarken]

Hello,

I have an E32-2
Been happy to live with a mostly dry bilge sans big rain blowing in the vents. Of recent, the bilge pump runs a bit more than normal. Maybe every 2 days.

I have a pss seal and though I can reach it, as you all know that have a boat like mine, I cannot see it drip and I’ve been at rest in hook for days. Water looks to be from aft. Not very salty to taste .

been some very rough seas and some from aft before she swings around into them. I thought maybe rudder post? Rudder is smooth and no hitches. Locked in seas. Greased two months ago on cockpit on the fittings. Really can’t see anything in there. I don’t know how it’s built.

looking for ideas.
Thank you. Oh 1975 boat. Was out for paint and a new speed depth through hull. Can see that is dry.

I’ve had packing seal boats and expect water.

thank you

 

[Dave G.]

I have a pss seal and though I can reach it, as you all know that have a boat like mine, I cannot see it drip

How old is the PSS ? They are generally water tight if in good working order. The weakest link is generally the bellows which will weaken over time and needs to be replaced every 6 years according to PYI. They sell a "Maintenance Kit" which includes the bellows, o-rings, set screws, & hose clamps. Of course when you do that you need to pull the boat to install. They also sometimes get debris stuck on the mating surface and need to be flushed/cleaned. Most of the time you can just burp it a couple times to flush it out. It should not be real easy to pull the bellows away from the rotor, if it is you probably in need of aforementioned kit if it's older unit.

 

[Solarken]

How old is the PSS ? They are generally water tight if in good working order. The weakest link is generally the bellows which will weaken over time and needs to be replaced every 6 years according to PYI. They sell a "Maintenance Kit" which includes the bellows, o-rings, set screws, & hose clamps. Of course when you do that you need to pull the boat to install. They also sometimes get debris stuck on the mating surface and need to be flushed/cleaned. Most of the time you can just burp it a couple times to flush it out. It should not be real easy to pull the bellows away from the rotor, if it is you probably in need of aforementioned kit if it's older unit.

That does not sound so good. I’ve talked to people that have them that are 20 years old. Pulling the motor to replace is crazy. Or pulling the rudder to get the aft shaft out. And then still having no access to work on it. There is absolutely no room in there.

 

[Frank Langer]

While Dave is right that it could be your PSS, and for liability they now recommend replacing every six years. But I spoke with their technician, and he said that if it has not been abused by sitting in oil or other nasty bilge fluid, has no cracks in the bellows, is correctly tensioned (their website has instructions), he has seen them last 25 years though he recommended replacing the bellows with their kit before then. On my boat I finally decided to replace the bellows, o-rings and set screws after 15 years as I also have kids/grandkids aboard sometimes. The bellows still looked perfect - - it's made of really thick rubber. So don't panic that this is needed immediately. However if there is any sign of cracking in the rubber, or if the tension isn't right or you have significant water around the PSS, then it does need immediate attention.
Let us know what you find.
Other possible sources of water are rain down the mast, leaking water tank or plumbing fittings, rain water getting in around locker openings, port/window leaks, leaking anchor locker, among others.
Good luck!
Frank

 

[Solarken]

Thank you guys. I’m going to look in there again but I could not see any dripping from the seal on last look. Water tank is suction to pump but it may be a bottom outlet. Would be hard to see water running from the front. Head sea cock is off, been using fresh to flush keeping holding easier to clean. When the motor was changed in 2018 the seal looked new still. Shaft was clamped to keep tension and all was fitted to keep that with no space. I know I get water if I weigh anchor because of all that comes in with the rode. But have not done that in 3 weeks.

I was wondering if very rough seas from aft could push some water up the tube and squeeze past the seal with pressure above normal? It’s only meant to keep out a very few feet or pressure. It’s not fast, I just don’t want to find out it can be.

no rain to speak of here for a while. I know rain has come in when we have a lot with winds.

I will keep looking and report what I find.

No oil in that area ever. You can see in but no way to reach without 4’ arms, short of pulling the motor.

Thank you

 

[cdh4088]

If you remove the wooden divider inside the cockpit seat locker, then remove the fuel tank, there is plenty of room to work.
On my boat, I expanded the tiny access panel in the quarter berth wall to nearly the size of the quarter berth itself to help with access too.
Ive spent way too much time in that engine compartment and it is very cramped!

 

[Loren Beach]

I was wondering if very rough seas from aft could push some water up the tube and squeeze past the seal with pressure above normal? It’s only meant to keep out a very few feet or pressure. It’s not fast, I just don’t want to find out it can be.

We have surfed down 5' seas for a day, off the WA coast. Our PSS seal never leaked.
Also not when smacking into waves on a rough bar crossing, either.
My guess is that a wave against the stern does not easily translate into any significant force inside the shaft alley.

 

[Solarken]

If you remove the wooden divider inside the cockpit seat locker, then remove the fuel tank, there is plenty of room to work.
On my boat, I expanded the tiny access panel in the quarter berth wall to nearly the size of the quarter berth itself to help with access too.
Ive spent way too much time in that engine compartment and it is very cramped!

Interesting,
On my boat there is an inspection hole in the quarter berth but as I recall? It’s mostly if not all looking at the top of the fuel tank shelf. But the aft quarter is filled with batteries now. The fuel tank is removed and the shelf, that is solid is now a battery shelf. Below it is a space you can get your arm in but not really work or see to work. Maybe a 4 year old could fit. I only accessed it with the cabinet and motor out. And the it’s a crawl under that shelf. I can reach behind the motor and turn the shaft. That has stopped a drip in the past. But as I said before I watched with a flashlight and saw no drips but I’m going to check again tomorrow morning. I know in 2018 the seal looked new. Rubber felt like a new hose. And the only way it leaked was if I pushed back the rubber from the ring on the shaft. It has maybe 300 hours on it from 2018. Maybe longest not run, 3 weeks. Never out of water more that two days. Last time last year. Next out planned for 2026.

 

[Solarken]

We have surfed down 5' seas for a day, off the WA coast. Our PSS seal never leaked.
Also not when smacking into waves on a rough bar crossing, either.
My guess is that a wave against the stern does not easily translate into any significant force inside the shaft alley.

I’ve surfed down many a wave also. And bashed many a wave. Is not the water moving aft doing those things? I’m taking 3’ waves hitting the stern dead in with enough force to knock you off your feet and water spray over the aft cockpit. Not into the vents because I stuck rags in them. But I get your point. I’m just curious. It was lifting the stern and dropping it to slam the next wave. Not real fun.

 

[Solarken]

Interesting that a guy on another site says he replaced his in water! I’ve asked just how it was done. Will post if answered.

 

[Christian Williams]

I have similar issue.

Check level of water tanks to eliminate possible leaks into bilge.

Check cockpit drain hoses to eliminate cracks that leak when rain enters cockpit. Yes, we've had little rain lately after the soaking wet winter.

My new dripless, installed by boatyard two years ago, is having a strange issue which I believe filled the bilge to the brim recently. I think the installation provides inadequate bellows compression. Not sure, and it seems unlikely, and the unit is new.

I just sent the following 2-minute video to PSS for comment before I go ahead and increase bellows pressure (using their $5 screws kit). I will report what PSS says.

 

[Solarken]

Thank you,

I’ll check water tank but I have seen nothing wet forward in the path to the bilge but there is nerdy little area you can see. Cockpit drains are sound still and I can run a wash down hose to simulate rain. I nerd to go under and clean the starboard outlet because it gets things growing in it that like what you wash off your hands. Usually easy with food grade peroxide but you cannot get it on this island. Nobody will ship it here either. Crazy.

and, video ever played. But I envy all the room you have to work!

 

[Christian Williams]

Video wouldn't play? What it shows is that my dripless sometimes pours water out after burping, which is unacceptable and demands answers.

 

[Solarken]

It played now. Mine will do the same. But by turning the shaft it will stop. I think when you burp it debris and sea growth can get between the carbon and the SS bushing. Turning the shaft seems to remove this. Can you turn it by hand ️ if in neutral?

thank you for your post of the video

pardon all my typos above, typing in rough waters

 

[Dave G.]

Can you turn it by hand ️ if in neutral?

I installed a maintenance kit a couple years ago & the new bellows was much thicker/firmer than the old one. I compressed to spec(3/4") & I cannot compress the bellows by hand. The shaft will turns freely by hand with a very slight dampening feel. Try tying a rag or paper towels around it while you're your anchored/docked to see if that's the culprit(don't forget about it). I guess you could do it in the water but you would have to be quick and have "0" issues along the way. Don't think I would attempt it though as I never have 0 issues. You shouldn't have to pull the engine ? The shaft would need to move at least 7" aft of coupler to do the work. Boat yoga is never fun but always seems to be part of the equation.

 

[Solarken]

I installed a maintenance kit a couple years ago & the new bellows was much thicker/firmer than the old one. I compressed to spec(3/4") & I cannot compress the bellows by hand. The shaft will turns freely by hand with a very slight dampening feel. Try tying a rag or paper towels around it while you're your anchored/docked to see if that's the culprit(don't forget about it). I guess you could do it in the water but you would have to be quick and have "0" issues along the way. Don't think I would attempt it though as I never have 0 issues. You shouldn't have to pull the engine ? The shaft would need to move at least 7" aft of coupler to do the work. Boat yoga is never fun but always seems to be part of the equation.

It’s impossible to get there without pulling the motor. Shaft will move 3.5” before prop hits rudder. I can mess with it with one hand. That’s all that will reach in that space.

at least, last night I only gathered ¼“ of water in the very small bilges. Not enough to trigger the pump float.

 

[Christian Williams]

To follow up on the video in Post #11:

I heard from PSS, who feel the water hose is displacing the rotor seal. They recommend removing the hose entirely and plugging the irrigation port on the unit. It's not a bellows compression issue.

They point out that such an irrigation hose is unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 10 knots under power. Just burp the unit after every launch.

Of course I didn't want such a hose and new thruhull, but the boatyard insisted it was necessary. PSS does not agree. See Message #21 below.

 

[Solarken]

To follow up on the video in Post #11:

I heard from PSS, who feel the water hose is displacing the rotor seal. They recommend removing the hose entirely and plugging the irrigation port on the unit. It's not a bellows compression issue.

They point out that such an irrigation hose is unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 10 knots under power. Just burp the unit after every launch.

Of course I didn't want such a hose and new thruhull, but the boatyard insisted it was necessary. PSS does not agree.

I don’t have a hose… so any pressure from waves coming in the shaft tube pushes directly on the gap.

 

[Solarken]

To follow up on the video in Post #11:

I heard from PSS, who feel the water hose is displacing the rotor seal. They recommend removing the hose entirely and plugging the irrigation port on the unit. It's not a bellows compression issue.

They point out that such an irrigation hose is unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 10 knots under power. Just burp the unit after every launch.

Of course I didn't want such a hose and new thruhull, but the boatyard insisted it was necessary. PSS does not agree.

Thank you for the follow up information by the way….

 

[Loren Beach]

They point out that such an irrigation hose is unnecessary on a sailboat that doesn't exceed 10 knots under power. Just burp the unit after every launch.

FWIW, that's what one of their factory guys told me, about 15 or 20 years ago at the Seattle boat show. He said that they were changing from having two products, one with a hose for boats that motored over 12 kts and might have the shaft alley sucked dry and needing a water supply, and a version for low speeds with no hose needed... to .... just one model with the vent/water injection fitting. He said that my sailboat should never need the 'vented' version.