offshore capability

[rhewitt]

please drop by on your way down or up....

Hi from Nicaragua...

It took some 2 1/2 years because of inland trips but the E-34 in now in San Juan del Sur, Nicaragua and went thru some bad stuff on the way down from the USA and still does now and then down here.

She took it and is still ticking with a little TLC. and will for years to come.

Stop by and see us if you get to the Pacific side.

Ralph

 

[fidji]

I served as a professional skipper on a Tartan 37-took delivery (brand new) from the truck in Annapolis, did the complete commissioning and prep, and then delivered her to Caracas for her Venezuelan film director-owner.

We did all the prep work we so often discuss on this site (cockpit drains, main hatch runner reinforcement and one piece heavy-weather hatch, running backs, storm sails, auto pilot, etc.)
28 days at sea. Generally a good strong sea boat with adequate performance, but had one serious and annoying issue:

The skeg broke on 3 separate occasions while sailing offshore, leaving the leading edge of the rudder exposed to the force of the water. Because of the rudder attachment, this led to the vertical bolts holding the horizontal pintle (a flat 2''X 9" S.S. bar extending fwd from the rudder post) to work back and forth, elongating the bolt holes, which created serious leaks. The first time, between Beaufort, NC and Ft. Lauderdale, was repaired by the guys at Derektors Yard according to the material schedule supplied by Tartan. We left F.L. for St. Thomas and 3 days out it sheared off again, forcing us to slow down dramatically to restrict the movement of the rudder, and put into Roadtown, Tortola for more repairs. This time Tartan sent a revised mat and roving schedule and instructions to beef up this piece, and we departed Roadtown for Caracas. Halfway across, it failed again, and by the time we got to the marina we were pumping 45 minutes of each hour, and had the boat halued immediately. Tartan finally sent a crew down and installed a total redesign of this skeg, which was originally designed to "protect" the rudder from damage (yeah right). In each case the failures happend reaching in trade wind conditions (15-25 kts) at speeds of about 6 knots in seas of 4-15 feet; the boat was well loaded, but certainly not being pressed.

This is the reason you have seen me share my feeling of skepticism as to the value and function of skeg/rudder combos-I prefer a strong, well built spade rudders for the maneuverability, strength stemming from the type of engineering/attachments used by this type, and number of miles sailed on different types of boats.

After all of this, I still enjoyed the T-37, and consider it a good seaboat-but like most designs, it has some flaws one must be aware of and correct before assuming all is well for offshore sailing.

Peace,
S

Thank you Seth, you are not the third son of Adam and Eve but I take your replies as biblic words. Some sailing legend said that a spade rudder is not suitable for going to serious sea states. The previous owner of my E35-3 hit something very solid, because the internal stainless steel grid was bent, and the trailing edge as a light bow looking.( My surveyer did not report-it) I made the repairs since but I still have some concerns about it. Can you give me some peace of mind?
Thank you for the invitation Ralph
Eric
E35-3
Decision

 

[Loren Beach]

Rudder comments

Some sailing legend said that a spade rudder is not suitable for going to serious sea states. The previous owner of my E35-3 hit something very solid, because the internal stainless steel grid was bent, and the trailing edge as a light bow looking.( My surveyer did not report-it) I made the repairs since but I still have some concerns about it.
Eric
E35-3
Decision

Seth has wrung more salt water out of his socks than I have sailed over... but having a number of deliveries behind me and personally knowing a number of ocean crossing sailors I would say that a boat designed for the ocean, by a good designer, from a good builder, can have a rudder attached by: 1) transom hung, 2) attached to long keel with a lower bearing, 3) spade with appropriate internal support, and/or some combination of these features... and ANY of these will do the job safely for tens of thousands of sea miles.
Boat Owners all have opinions, and are entitled to 'em, and some get paid to write 'em up in books & magazines for others to form vicarious second-hand opinions from...
Just remember that *all* steering designs have intrinsic strengths and weaknesses. Your E boat meets the test for designer and builder. Next task for the aspiring blue-water-transiting owner is to do the maintenance that needs doing after two or three decades, before heading out.
Opinions rendered on the hour, deposit .01.
Loren
ps: your surveyor sounds a tad "less than qualified"

 

[fidji]

Yeah I know Canadian cents
Thank you Loren, like we said in my province... Tonight I'm gone go to bed,a bit less stupid...
Eric

Seth has wrung more salt water out of his socks than I have sailed over... but having a number of deliveries behind me and personally knowing a number of ocean crossing sailors I would say that a boat designed for the ocean, by a good designer, from a good builder, can have a rudder attached by: 1) transom hung, 2) attached to long keel with a lower bearing, 3) spade with appropriate internal support, and/or some combination of these features... and ANY of these will do the job safely for tens of thousands of sea miles.
Boat Owners all have opinions, and are entitled to 'em, and some get paid to write 'em up in books & magazines for others to form vicarious second-hand opinions from...
Just remember that *all* steering designs have intrinsic strengths and weaknesses. Your E boat meets the test for designer and builder. Next task for the aspiring blue-water-transiting owner is to do the maintenance that needs doing after two or three decades, before heading out.
Opinions rendered on the hour, deposit .01.
Loren
ps: your surveyor sounds "less than qualified"

 

[Seth]

That is what I meant to say

Loren can usually be counted on to clear up my muddy comments. His point is dead on- ALL of these are VERY acceptable methods of rudder design and attachment-the devil is in the details and quality of engineering and construction. The minor damage to the rudder stock is an indicator of how strong those babies are-but if it hit something that hard, someone should drop it, and inspect the internal metal for integrity and repair as needed-as would be the case for any underbody part that is hit hard.

I would have lots of peace of mind as to the general design integrity for offshore sailing, but would inspect and repair any damage just the same.
A lesser design would likely have lost the rudder in such an impact.

Hope this helps, and I AM the 3rd son of Adam (since disowned, though).
Cheers,
S

 

[fidji]

Loren can usually be counted on to clear up my muddy comments. His point is dead on- ALL of these are VERY acceptable methods of rudder design and attachment-the devil is in the details and quality of engineering and construction. The minor damage to the rudder stock is an indicator of how strong those babies are-but if it hit something that hard, someone should drop it, and inspect the internal metal for integrity and repair as needed-as would be the case for any underbody part that is hit hard.

I would have lots of peace of mind as to the general design integrity for offshore sailing, but would inspect and repair any damage just the same.
A lesser design would likely have lost the rudder in such an impact.

Hope this helps, and I AM the 3rd son of Adam (since disowned, though).
Cheers,
S

Last point to discuss with you Seth, how much trust do you have on the hull to deck glassed joint on E-boats? they are submitted to hull twisting and flexing in a seaway. Do they add some mechanical fastener too in those joints? And what about bulkheads tabbing, and chainplates integrity?
Eric

 

[Seth]

No last points

I consider this an area of strength. As has been described here many times, both the hull and deck have outward facing lips, or flanges as they are pulled from the female molds, and when the deck is lowered onto the hull, and after sealant is applied along the joint (5200 in my time at the factory-can't speak for the PSC days), they are screwed down tight together. Then, a very heavy schedule of mat and roving is applied on the inside of the seam (in the interior of the boat). After this is cured, the screws and all but about 1/2"-3/4" of the lip (and the screws along with it) are sawed off, leaving just enough of a lip (which of course is now bonded on the inside) to screw in the rubrail extrusion horizontally-and the actual rubber part is then slid into the extruded section.

Anyway, the rubrail discussion aside (which is not structural), the hull/deck have now virtually become a one piece unit, very stiff and very strong.

The bulkheads have already been bonded to the TAFG and hull sides before the deck is lowered, and are then bonded to the deck undersides (ceiling).

The result is a very stiff hull in terms of fore and aft bend from rig loading, flex and torsional movement from a seaway with minimal oil-canning.

As Loren says, this is not the only good way to do it, but I don't know of any methods that are actually stronger or better-and certainly not unless you go into exotic materials like carbon fiber. Primary chainplate loads are transferred to the TAFG by S.S. tie rods, so the hull/deck joint should not be stressed by rig loading on the deck.

Pretty stout boats, really.

Word.

S

 

[fidji]

Wow! Now I can have peace in my mind. You don't know how greatful I am. somebody made an mistake to disowned you
Thank you so much!
Eric

 

[JohnK]

To back up what Seth said, Don Casey in Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair writes (emphasis mine),

Most hull-to-deck joints fall into one of three categories: inboard flange, outboard flange, or shoebox. The best joints are fiberglassed together into a single strong and leak-free unit, but few boats are built this way. Most are joined mechanically with rivets, screws, or bolts, and depend on sealant to keep water out.

 

[Loren Beach]

Seth's timeless wisdom in this thread deserves a 'bump' IMO.
(Newer site members may not yet know to search out good threads.)

 

[Seth]

Happy New Year Loren!

 

[p.gazibara]

We sailed out of Tahiti in 5m seas, I had just got over dengue fever and we officially cleared out of the country 10 days prior. We were buddy boating with a solo friend on a HR 36. The breeze was up and we came out of the pass (Taravao) on a close reach like a freight train. The boat (35-2) handled everything like a champ but she has also been heavily modified over the years. We were not in storm conditions, just reinforced trades 20+ with a big swell running.

IMO the third gen boats are built much more robust. Pedrick’s structural grid design made a huge difference. Our boat had the liner separate from the hull in her past, a flaw of the second gen boats if they are pushed hard for 25 years. As part of the fix we also now have an upgraded keel stepped rig (express 34).

I would recommend upgrading the rudder, ours is much larger than stock and well balanced. I pull and inspect it every time we are out of the water.

With modern forecasts, I save the big wind days for kitesurfing and safe the light wind days for champagne sailing.
I wouldn’t hesitate to take her the rest of the way around, but back and forth from NZ to the tropics sounds much better these days then carrying on around the world.
-P

 

[Seth]

Great share and great adventure. You are 100% right that the later TAFG boats are more robust and need less modification for serious offshore sailing. That being said I am happy to see you doing this kind of sailing with your 35-2 and have been able to adapt her for it. And in fairness, almost no production boats are fully ready for this kind of sailing-after all only a small percentage of owners use them that way and they are built and priced for the most common use! Ditto on the rudder-I also love this boat but could not imagine doing any serious sailing without the bigger better rudder. That was the major weak part of an otherwise great design. It wasn't the only boat from that era with too small of a rudder, and yacht design has come a long way since! Cheers

 

[Gaviate]

Seth's timeless wisdom in this thread deserves a 'bump' IMO.
(Newer site members may not know to search it out, as time goes by.)

Thanks Loren!!!
Back in the 6th grade, I had received an award for "uses time wisely".....haven't really felt worthy of that reward for some time now as I never seem to be caught up...... reading and absorbing the knowledge and experience of folks in this thread and others.... is certainly a wise use of my time!!