offshore capability
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- capability offshore
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
The boat would be up to it if handled properly.
Are You?? :unsure:
Gary Peterson
E381 QUIXOTIC
Are You?? :unsure:
Gary Peterson
E381 QUIXOTIC
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Hi,
Maybe more to the point is this: Why would anyone with access to reasonably accurate weather forecasts find themselves out in 18-foot seas and 50-60 knots of wind? I've been out--but not for long--in 36-42 knots. Miserable. I have been out in 12-15 foot seas while sailing across the Straits of Florida to Cuba. Would not do either again on a bet.
Morgan Stinemetz
Maybe more to the point is this: Why would anyone with access to reasonably accurate weather forecasts find themselves out in 18-foot seas and 50-60 knots of wind? I've been out--but not for long--in 36-42 knots. Miserable. I have been out in 12-15 foot seas while sailing across the Straits of Florida to Cuba. Would not do either again on a bet.
Morgan Stinemetz
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
Morgan, were those trips taken in your Ericson 27, or in a larger boat?
Frank.
Frank.
Thank you Morgan, in what kind of boat did you encounter those weather conditions?
Eric
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Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Guys,
The 36-42 knots experience was on Tampa Bay. Some nitwit race committee guy started a race in those conditions. We went out to see what it was like, said the hell with it, and then took about an hour to motorsail back to the dock. We had a kid on board with little body fat, and he got hypothermic. This was in November in Tampa Bay and we were on my Ericson 27.
The trip down to Cuba was also in my Ericson 27. Oddly, I got hypothermic on that trip myself, which was in April. It was a hard ride both ways. My experience has been that the boat is stronger than the crew. But the boat isn't bulletproof either. Going sailing in survival conditions--the trip to Cuba didn't qualify as "survival conditions"--is just bad head work.
I have been hypothermic twice. Once on the way to Cuba and another time on horseback in the swamps of the Florida Panhandle. The first thing to go is your judgment. It's dangerous.
Morgan Stinemetz
The 36-42 knots experience was on Tampa Bay. Some nitwit race committee guy started a race in those conditions. We went out to see what it was like, said the hell with it, and then took about an hour to motorsail back to the dock. We had a kid on board with little body fat, and he got hypothermic. This was in November in Tampa Bay and we were on my Ericson 27.
The trip down to Cuba was also in my Ericson 27. Oddly, I got hypothermic on that trip myself, which was in April. It was a hard ride both ways. My experience has been that the boat is stronger than the crew. But the boat isn't bulletproof either. Going sailing in survival conditions--the trip to Cuba didn't qualify as "survival conditions"--is just bad head work.
I have been hypothermic twice. Once on the way to Cuba and another time on horseback in the swamps of the Florida Panhandle. The first thing to go is your judgment. It's dangerous.
Morgan Stinemetz
Morgan Stinemetz
Moderator
Of course size matters. Bigger boats can take bigger seas and are more comfortable in a seaway. They also sail with more people aboard, splitting duties more routinely.
I've been sailing for 30 years now, maybe longer. My real hardship days are in my own, personal wake. Gotta have my comfort.
Morgan Stinemetz
I've been sailing for 30 years now, maybe longer. My real hardship days are in my own, personal wake. Gotta have my comfort.
Morgan Stinemetz
I wonder if any of the EYO member can tell-me if a Ericson 35 mk3 can be used in offshore conditions like 50 to 60 knots wind and 18 feets of wave. I want to know more about my boat with some experimented sailors
Eric
FWIW, we all tend to take the opening sentences in any thread and just go forward... good thing, too, since that's what was really requested.
In this case, I also see the question being begged that one would plan to be in storm-force conditions in the first place. Of course, when you make any major crossing beyond a one week weather synopsis, and especially in a time of year known for unsettled weather you can indeed be in 60 kt winds and seas to 18 ft.
I only have a couple of long passages along the west coast to go with my many over-nighters. However, I do know a number of ocean crossing cruisers and they have all avoided heavy weather as described above. They all use weather planning and common sense about routing.
I have personally been in "full gale" conditions for 36 hours with seas breaking everywhere, to 19 feet. (Stats from USCG and NOAA, not my estimations.)
I was on a Cascade 36 on the "rough" trip. IMO any mid-size Ericson would have been equally safe and appropriate. It gets back to, as always, your personal preparation and the equipping of your own boat. Always. Always...
By the 80's, Ericson was installing spendy ORC-level gear on all their boats like that second big manual bilge pump at the helm. They were using bridge decks as part of the deck design. When other builders went to "dockside condo interiors" early, Ericson stuck to galleys and navigation areas that could still funcion at sea. And, etc.
IMHO, the only "issue" with an 80's Ericson is just that it is (over?) 25 years old and needs to have all the often-deferred maintenance done when you buy one. :nerd:
Before going blue water, replace that old (if over a decade) standing rig and lifelines. Engine mounts are probably over-age and flattened. Ports may need new gaskets, rebed the keel, yadda yadda yadda. But, you knew that.
If I could assume (dangerous word) that the opening question is about the basic Desgin and Construction of the hull and deck... then *yes* it is up to continuous time at sea.
Opinions rendered on the hour; deposit .02 Canadian, please!
Oh yeah, and what Morgan said above. Very true.
Cheers,
Loren in PDX
ps: Erc, did you mean "experienced" sailors, or just sailors that have been experimented upon? ("Abby Normal"?)
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Thank you Loren, evething concerning the boat preparation is done . I like the hull to joint construction of my boat. I think the overall quality of construction of a Ericson boat is better than new production boats like the french UFO'S (Unreliable floatings objects)
Any other opinions to share?
Eric
(I think I'm gone a break my piggy bank)
Any other opinions to share?
Eric
(I think I'm gone a break my piggy bank)
Kevin Johnston
Member III
Gales and Boats
I signed on as crew on a mid 70's Cal 34 out of the bay area racing in the Coastal Cup (San Fran to Santa Barbara). During the race we had gale conditions for 12 hours with 15-20 foot seas (Stats from USCG and NOAA). We topped 18 knots surfing down the waves. It was the most intense sailing I have done and the boat took third place in its class. That said...
I would take an Ericson E35 over the Cal 34 in a heartbeat in similar conditions. I was asked before joining the crew if I had ever flown a spinnaker in 30 knot winds and my answer was that I have taken it down in half that on my E27, and I guess that qualified me. I am glad that the crew were very seasoned.
I should have known that something was a foul though when 3 of the 6 man crew went to weather in a rental car. The trip back North is 3 days and there are not many places on the California coast to put in without a 24 hour plus stretch to get from point a to b, so watching the weather is a must. We had to hide from the weather at Morro Bay because the conditions were so bad. I never got the boat to its home port since I had a flight to catch.
KJ
I signed on as crew on a mid 70's Cal 34 out of the bay area racing in the Coastal Cup (San Fran to Santa Barbara). During the race we had gale conditions for 12 hours with 15-20 foot seas (Stats from USCG and NOAA). We topped 18 knots surfing down the waves. It was the most intense sailing I have done and the boat took third place in its class. That said...
I would take an Ericson E35 over the Cal 34 in a heartbeat in similar conditions. I was asked before joining the crew if I had ever flown a spinnaker in 30 knot winds and my answer was that I have taken it down in half that on my E27, and I guess that qualified me. I am glad that the crew were very seasoned.
I should have known that something was a foul though when 3 of the 6 man crew went to weather in a rental car. The trip back North is 3 days and there are not many places on the California coast to put in without a 24 hour plus stretch to get from point a to b, so watching the weather is a must. We had to hide from the weather at Morro Bay because the conditions were so bad. I never got the boat to its home port since I had a flight to catch.
KJ
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NateHanson
Sustaining Member
I don't think there are many who would argue that a heavier, bigger boat would not be safer or more comfortable in a gale, but that's not to say that a traditional hull is the only way to go for bluewater. It's all about the trade-offs between speed, comfort, seakindliness, cost, availability, good looks, etc. And you have to match those trade-offs to your comfort level.
I doubt anyone here can tell you whether you should get a valiant 40. Would it be a stronger, more seaworthy boat than an E 35? I'm guessing yes. But it comes with it's own trade-offs as well.
I doubt anyone here can tell you whether you should get a valiant 40. Would it be a stronger, more seaworthy boat than an E 35? I'm guessing yes. But it comes with it's own trade-offs as well.
Gary Peterson
Marine Guy
I would be very cautious about putting a Tayana 37 in the same ball park.
Being a Tiawanese built boat, the wiring not being tinned and the hardware being suspect in it's quality, salt water wins !!
Gary Peterson
E381 QUIXOTIC
Being a Tiawanese built boat, the wiring not being tinned and the hardware being suspect in it's quality, salt water wins !!
Gary Peterson
E381 QUIXOTIC
Hi! Nate ,I love the way you answer that question you look like a pragmatic guy. Now I thing that is a better way to find the best boat for my purpose than trying to find the best boat of overall purpose. The best boat of the world doesn't exist. I think , if I have a good weather planning with good shealter planning too, I can use my E35-3 to go to south America where I want to go
Thank you
Thank you
I'll tell him to get a Valiant if his plans are hardcore offshore! I've been on a few Valiants (late models) and poked around them enough to recognize a very well thought out offshore boat. Yes, not perfect but very, very good and IMHO a step above an Ericson. Pretty much tough enough to go straight offshore with no prep beyond provisioning. But you better bring your wallet. Even used they hold value like few other boats.
That said, the E35 is a fine mount properly upgraded and sailed by someone who has a clue.
RT
Nate is good isn't he?
He is correct and balanced as usual-yes, you can certainly use your boat to head to South America, and if properly prepared and handled will see you through about any weather you could run into.
As he says-all boats have their trade-offs, the heavier boats do carry more load as a percent of overall weight with less loss of performance, but there is less to begin with. They have a somewhat easier motion in a seaway, but usually much poorer windward performance if caught off a lee shore, and the list goes on.
The Valiant 40 IS an exceptional boat-strong and a good performer, but I would take your E-boat over any Tayana 37 (the big Tayana's are not too bad), and would take it over most production boats. The key is with the prep and decision making at sea.
safe travels,
S
He is correct and balanced as usual-yes, you can certainly use your boat to head to South America, and if properly prepared and handled will see you through about any weather you could run into.
As he says-all boats have their trade-offs, the heavier boats do carry more load as a percent of overall weight with less loss of performance, but there is less to begin with. They have a somewhat easier motion in a seaway, but usually much poorer windward performance if caught off a lee shore, and the list goes on.
The Valiant 40 IS an exceptional boat-strong and a good performer, but I would take your E-boat over any Tayana 37 (the big Tayana's are not too bad), and would take it over most production boats. The key is with the prep and decision making at sea.
safe travels,
S
NateHanson
Sustaining Member
Wow. I guess I stumbled upon some truth!
I'm going to bookmark this thread, and show it to my wife the next time we're having a "discussion" about whether I ever get anything right.
I'm going to bookmark this thread, and show it to my wife the next time we're having a "discussion" about whether I ever get anything right.
Almost as good
I served as a professional skipper on a Tartan 37-took delivery (brand new) from the truck in Annapolis, did the complete commissioning and prep, and then delivered her to Caracas for her Venezuelan film director-owner.
We did all the prep work we so often discuss on this site (cockpit drains, main hatch runner reinforcement and one piece heavy-weather hatch, running backs, storm sails, auto pilot, etc.)
28 days at sea. Generally a good strong sea boat with adequate performance, but had one serious and annoying issue:
The skeg broke on 3 separate occasions while sailing offshore, leaving the leading edge of the rudder exposed to the force of the water. Because of the rudder attachment, this led to the vertical bolts holding the horizontal pintle (a flat 2''X 9" S.S. bar extending fwd from the rudder post) to work back and forth, elongating the bolt holes, which created serious leaks. The first time, between Beaufort, NC and Ft. Lauderdale, was repaired by the guys at Derektors Yard according to the material schedule supplied by Tartan. We left F.L. for St. Thomas and 3 days out it sheared off again, forcing us to slow down dramatically to restrict the movement of the rudder, and put into Roadtown, Tortola for more repairs. This time Tartan sent a revised mat and roving schedule and instructions to beef up this piece, and we departed Roadtown for Caracas. Halfway across, it failed again, and by the time we got to the marina we were pumping 45 minutes of each hour, and had the boat halued immediately. Tartan finally sent a crew down and installed a total redesign of this skeg, which was originally designed to "protect" the rudder from damage (yeah right). In each case the failures happend reaching in trade wind conditions (15-25 kts) at speeds of about 6 knots in seas of 4-15 feet; the boat was well loaded, but certainly not being pressed.
This is the reason you have seen me share my feeling of skepticism as to the value and function of skeg/rudder combos-I prefer a strong, well built spade rudders for the maneuverability, strength stemming from the type of engineering/attachments used by this type, and number of miles sailed on different types of boats.
After all of this, I still enjoyed the T-37, and consider it a good seaboat-but like most designs, it has some flaws one must be aware of and correct before assuming all is well for offshore sailing.
Peace,
S
I served as a professional skipper on a Tartan 37-took delivery (brand new) from the truck in Annapolis, did the complete commissioning and prep, and then delivered her to Caracas for her Venezuelan film director-owner.
We did all the prep work we so often discuss on this site (cockpit drains, main hatch runner reinforcement and one piece heavy-weather hatch, running backs, storm sails, auto pilot, etc.)
28 days at sea. Generally a good strong sea boat with adequate performance, but had one serious and annoying issue:
The skeg broke on 3 separate occasions while sailing offshore, leaving the leading edge of the rudder exposed to the force of the water. Because of the rudder attachment, this led to the vertical bolts holding the horizontal pintle (a flat 2''X 9" S.S. bar extending fwd from the rudder post) to work back and forth, elongating the bolt holes, which created serious leaks. The first time, between Beaufort, NC and Ft. Lauderdale, was repaired by the guys at Derektors Yard according to the material schedule supplied by Tartan. We left F.L. for St. Thomas and 3 days out it sheared off again, forcing us to slow down dramatically to restrict the movement of the rudder, and put into Roadtown, Tortola for more repairs. This time Tartan sent a revised mat and roving schedule and instructions to beef up this piece, and we departed Roadtown for Caracas. Halfway across, it failed again, and by the time we got to the marina we were pumping 45 minutes of each hour, and had the boat halued immediately. Tartan finally sent a crew down and installed a total redesign of this skeg, which was originally designed to "protect" the rudder from damage (yeah right). In each case the failures happend reaching in trade wind conditions (15-25 kts) at speeds of about 6 knots in seas of 4-15 feet; the boat was well loaded, but certainly not being pressed.
This is the reason you have seen me share my feeling of skepticism as to the value and function of skeg/rudder combos-I prefer a strong, well built spade rudders for the maneuverability, strength stemming from the type of engineering/attachments used by this type, and number of miles sailed on different types of boats.
After all of this, I still enjoyed the T-37, and consider it a good seaboat-but like most designs, it has some flaws one must be aware of and correct before assuming all is well for offshore sailing.
Peace,
S