Fuel Tank Removal E 38-200

[ted_reshetiloff]

How hard is this one? I want to thoroughly clean out the tank as I am getting sludge in my primary filter. Other option is to have someone like Petroscrub come and clean it but cost is not yet known. Assuming the tank is emptied how hard is it to physically get it out of the boat?

Thanks,

P.S. New main is supposed to show up from Quantum today

 

[lbertran]

Hey, Ted...

We had a sludge problem earlier this summer. Our motor quit on the way back from Solomons. Our mechanic cleaned out as best he could but these tanks are baffled and he couldn't get behind the baffles. He thinks we should consider a new tank! I'd rather not do that for obvious reasons. And we haven't had any problems since the cleaning. In fact the Racor looks totally clear and clean. Let me know what you find out from Petroscrub. I've also seen adds for inspection plates for aluminum fuel tanks that are supposed to not leak. I'm not sure I believe that.
Laura

 

[Geoff Johnson]

It looks like Petroscrub is basically a fuel polishing service, which is basically what your engine is doing since it runs so much more fuel through the filters than it uses. What I did one year is to pump all the fuel out of the tank (my yard has a tank for disposal) and have a look inside. There was some sludge (precipitated tar) on the tank. Since it was holding holding tenaciously, I left it alone. I removed all the loose stuff with a long stem cheap pump.

Since then I pump the bottom of the tank out annually and use diesel treatment http://www.priproducts.com/pridpage.htm

The sludge has been greatly reduced and the fuel does not turn dark as it did before.

 

[lbertran]

what about the baffles?

Geoff-
Were you able to clean behind the baffles? This is the issue that is hanging us up. We hadn't had any trouble with the fuel, other than dirty primary filter, until we were waked by a large commercial vessel. So the stuff that was apparently stuck to the bottom, got unstuck in a hurry.
Laura Bertran
Footloose, E 35-3

 

[Glyn Judson]

Fuel polishing (tank cleaning).

Years ago I had the 24 gallon tank in our E25+ cleaned. The fellow doing it first poured a gallon of lacquor thinner into the emptied tank and agitated it with compressed air directed by a length of malable, 1/8" copper tubing like what's used for ice makers in your refrigerator at home. He bent the tubing back and forth so as to access areas on the other side of each baffle which turned the tars and sludge into a slurry. The lacquor thinner acted as a powerful solvent to loosen the bottom sludge so as to be able to filter it out. He vacuumed out all that crud as best he could, added five gallons of diesel and began the fuel polishing process. The color of the diesel and remaining tank sludge in his sight glass started out a dark brown (almost black) but after about 3-4 hours of this tank dialysis, had the amber glow of clover honey. I tired removing the tank myself at first but was unsuccessful so the fuel polishing was the only route to go. The cause of all this was a 70 mile passage on calm seas without incident but the ride home was lumpy. That's what began to chrun up the sediment on the bottom which in turn fouled the fuel filters and caused the engine to barely run. The fuel polishing solved all that. Glyn

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Laura, I frankly didn't see any baffles in my 20 gallon tank, but I did poke at a dark spot on the bottom with a stick and it seemed stuck like tar. There was a bunch of floating crud at the low point (suspended just below the bottom of the intake tube). I'm sure that that would have been sucked in if the tank were agitated. However, for the last couple of years since the initial pump out (probably the first in 15 years) and the use of diesel treatment, the floating crud has become almost impercetible.

 

[lbertran]

Tank Cleaning

Geoff and Glyn-
Thanks for the feedback. There's a guy that advertises his tank cleaning service in a local sailing mag. I think I'll give him a call and see if he's as thorough as Glyn's guy. That really sounds like it should get most of the crud out.

Laura

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Let us know what you find out. Here is the web site for the access plates in case you want to install some (due to the baffles):

http://www.seabuilt.com/main.html

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I have not yet had any engine problems. I bought the boat in january with a tank that was 7/8 full. I changed all of the filters and oils then. Since then I have run the tank down to about 1/3 then filled up, now I am at about 1/4. I changed the racor last week and noticed a lot of sludge in it. I think I will keep an eye on it, run the tank down later this year, and monitor the filter. I will add some Bio Bor or what ever next time I add fuel. Would be interested to know what these polishers charge though, those Racor replacements aren't exactly free....

 

[Geoff Johnson]

Here is a discussion I found on a Grand Banks web site. If this information is correct, then fuel polishing is a waste of money because the problem will return in a few months.

The University of Idaho tests showed that #2 diesel fuel degraded 26% in 28 days. The shelf life of diesel is about 100 days after it leaves the refinery after which it begins to break down and form sedimentation, turns dark and starts to smell bad. Sedimentation forms clusters which fall to the bottom of the tank. In the early stages the clusters will pass thru a filter and into the cumbustion chamber where only the outside burns leaving unburned fuel at the core and creates smoke. As the clusters get larger they will get trapped by the filter. The challange for the fuel company is to create a blend which is stable and has sufficient solvancy to keep alphaltene molecules in solution. Fuel tratement like Pri-D (there are others too) will prolong the solvancy, but does not convert clusters back to liquid fuel. Filtration will reduce the clusters from getting into the cumbustion chamber. This is why multi-stage filtration is so important. The smallest particles should be allowed to reach the secondary filter where they coat the outside and enhance the filtration process and explains why the primary fuel filter should have a higher micron rating than the secondary. Microorganism growth is a separate matter caused by moisture in the fuel. Cyclonic fuel/water separators like Racor filters will spin out the water IF the fuel passes thru it with sufficient velocity. Cellulose filters will absorbe a limited amount of water. Algae is a myth - there is no algae in diesel fuel.

http://www.oxfordyachtagency.com/ubb/ubbhtml/Forum1/HTML/003883.html

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I cant argue with the Idaho results but I do believe it is possible to clean the tank either by removal or by access with high pressure solvents provided the access is good. I have a call in to Petroscrub and am awaiting a call back. Went out last night. It was very dark and blowing close to 30. Wanted to try out my new main but ended up just sailing with the #3. 6 foot seas on the chesapeake are rare... Had about 1/8 of a tank. We were backing into the slip and the engine died. Wow that could have happened at a much worse time... Tied up and opened the bleed valve. The fuel pump sounded a little slower than it normally does which tells me that the filter is clogged with sludge. I am not surprised as the tank has not been run down this low since I bought the boat, and it was really rough out so a lot of crud must have been stirred up. I am going to drain the filter and have a look. Will probably get the Petroscrub boys to clean the tank and then install some new filters. They will install access ports if needed.

 

[stbdtack]

fuel tank removal.....

The picture below shows how got my tank out. The tank had a pinhole leak from corrosion. Ericson didnt do a very good installation job and water stayed trapped under the tank.

When I removed the tank I found that it wouldnt fit through the companionway. Not suprising since its all done before the deck is put on. Quick measurement and the sawzall got it out with 1/4 inch to spare. Went to get it repaired and the tank guy reminded me that I would be re installing an "old" repaired tank. Convinced me to have a new one built, so $700 bucks later I had a much stronger, better baffeled tank that would fit through the hatch.

Since Ericson didnt bother to degrease the original tank, all the fiberglass tabbing to secure the tank had let go. This was a good thing as it left a perfect cradle to hold the new tank in place. I used 5200 to bond 1/4 inch lexan strips to the bottom of the tank so water won't be in contact, as well as making sure there were drain holes to let the water get past the tabbing.

Was expensive but now I will never worry about the condition of the tank. Besides having the tank cleaned and repaired was going to be $350. I also know it's installed correctly and will fit through the hatch if needed.

I filled the part of the tank I cut off with water and it measured 1.5 gallons. The tank still holds 52 gallons so I dont think I will miss it.

BTW the Tank access ports mentioned in the previous post are VERY high quality. Mine was expensive but I'm pretty sure it will never leak. I had a simple float gauge installed with the mechanical dial on top of the tank. The electric one was always a problem and I didnt trust it.

 

[chaco]

Old Steel Tank = RUST!

Just removed the galvanized steel diesel tank from the 74' 35II.
Tried the drain and clean routine. Removed the inpection plates and found
that the tank was completely RUSTED.
Replacement was my only option. All the cleaning and polishing in the WORLD
would not have saved this tank. Look carefully at your tank before trying the
polishing route. Cleaning a marginal tank is very overrated.

Good Luck

Merlin
Oceanside Harbor, CA

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Had the tank cleaned today. Mine looks a bit different than the one pictured above as I have a 38-200 model from 1989. Cleaning cost $300. Took several hours. I was not there when they did it. Company called petroscrub did the job. They came very highly recomended. Tech told me he found algae, sludge, and a little water. Petroscrub has a good website but I forget the link, use google. He changed both of my filters after the job and recommended I use Bio-Bor (sp?) if I was going to use anything at all. He said if I was using the boat regularly I should not need to use any additive, but if it was going to sit for a while to use the bio bor. He said that was the only additive he had anything good to say about. Tank looks to be in good shape structurally, no significant corosion. I will let you all know how it goes as only time will tell. One other thing he recommended was replacing the o-ring on my deck fill every year as preventive measure. He says a lot of moisture get in through these apparently if the are in bad shape.

 

[u079721]

Second the use of Bio Bor

Ted,

I second the idea to use Bio Bor (or however you spell it). I took a marine diesel mechanic class in '94 when we bought our boat, and they said Bio Bor was the only additive they recommended anyone use. So I used it for eleven seasons, and never had a single bit of sludge appear in the filters. Every spring I would sound the bottom of the tank to remove water and still found no sludge. Let's hope that's the last you see of that problem.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

This summer I used perhaps 10 gallons of diesel so some of the fuel is certainly more than 6 months old. This is what Exxon has to say on the subject of stabilizers.

How long can I store diesel fuel?
If you keep it clean, cool and dry, diesel fuel can be stored 6 months to 1 year without significant quality degradation. Storage for longer periods can be accomplished through use of periodic filtrations and addition of fuel stabilizers and biocides.

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM/Products_Services/Fuels/Diesel_Fuels_FAQ.asp

And Chevron:

What special precautions need to be taken with diesel fuel that must be stored for a long period of time?
While storage stability should not be a concern for the majority of diesel fuel users, those who store diesel fuel for a prolonged period, i.e., one year or longer, can take steps to maintain fuel integrity. The actions listed below provide increasing levels of protection:

Purchase clean, dry fuel from a reputable supplier. Keep the stored fuel cool and dry. The presence of free water encourages corrosion of metal storage tanks and provides the medium for microbiological growth.
Add an appropriate stabilizer that contains an antioxidant, biocide, and corrosion inhibitor.
Use a fuel quality management service to regularly test the fuel, and as necessary, polish it – by filtration through portable filters – and add fresh stabilizer. This is common practice for nuclear power plants with back-up diesel powered generators.

http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bulletin/diesel/L2_qa_fs.htm

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

All Good

So far so good. I have been keeping any eye on the bowl on my racor and it has never been this clear. Fuel looks like it should. Spoke with a guy over the weekend who does a lot of cruising in the caribb and central america and said they run 2 racors prior to the secondary on the engine. The issue is the quality of available fuel in those locals. I dont see the need to go that route for the cruising I do but another suggestion he had that was good was adding a vacuum guage to the racor filter. It will let you know when it is time to change the filter. Racor makes these kits, I have not seen where they are available but I'm sure google can find it. One thing I want to discuss is the proper micron level of filtration for the primary racor. Any thoughts here guys? I run a 24RS filter which I think is a 2 micron filter. This is what was on the boat when I bought it but that by no means makes it the best choice. Also does anyone know the micron level of the filter that is on the engine itself? I have been using the genuine Universal filters. (Dont know a FRAM number)

 

[Geoff Johnson]

As I recall over on the Torresen web site they recommend a 10 micron filter on the primary. The secondary (engine) filter is 2 micron.

http://forums.torresen.com/sailing/viewtopic.php?t=526&highlight=micron

Having said that, my yard always installs a 2 micron filter on both and I have never had a problem. Of course, as noted above, I don't use much fuel and usually buy it at gas stations and add it by gerry can at 1.5 gallon increments as needed.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

10 micron makes sense on the primary. Running 2 micron on both would make the secondary filter (on the engine) useless wouldn't it? I think this is the way mine is set up now with a 24RS on the racor. If the fuel getting to the secondary filter on the engine has already been filtered to 2 micron level then I am thinking it would not be doing much. I had been told that the job of the primary was to remove moisture and to prefilter so the secondary, and noteably smaller, filter was less likely to get over loaded. That being said I guess I need to go to Racor's site and see which filter is the 10 micron that I should use.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

This source suggests that the reason for the two filter system is to increase the longevity of the filters. If so, then I don't think it matters that I use 2 micron filter on my primary since thay are changed every season and the so little fuel passes through them. (Flow restriction is not an issue since they are all rated for 15 gph and the engine uses less than .5 gph).

Q: What is the difference between a primary and secondary diesel fuel filter?

A: A primary diesel fuel filter is the first filter in a two filter system. It is located before the secondary filter, and usually before any transfer pump in the system. A primary filter is used to remove the bulk of free water and contaminants and thus protect the transfer pump (if present) and secondary filter. Typical primary filter efficiency is 95% to 98% @ =10 to 50 microns.

A secondary filter is the second filter in a two filter system. It is located between the primary filter and the fuel injection system, often after a transfer pump. Typical secondary filter efficiency is 95% to 98% @ = 3 to 10 microns. Newer high pressure fuel injection systems require removal of the smallest measurable hard particles.

The main advantage of a two filter system over a single filter system is that much of the dissolved asphaltenes present in diesel fuel are caught by the primary filter, leaving the secondary filter relatively clean and ready to remove free water and fine particles. A properly sized two filter system will often outlast and outperform a similarly rated single fuel filter system.

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/faqs/faqdieselfuel.htm


Here's another article (from Cruising World . . . the author, Steve D'Antonio, is quite knowledgeable):

Diesel fuel filters are typically rated in microns—millionths of a meter. The higher the number, the coarser the filter. Most primary-filter manufacturers recommend using 10- or 30-micron elements, which means they’ll catch anything bigger than that size. The idea is to catch the water and coarse dirt here and let the secondary filter take care of the finer grit.

Some cruisers prefer to use a finer primary filter to catch all but the finest particles before they reach the secondary
filter. This may work for some, but in my experience, it isn’t any more effective. With this system setup, filters typically don’t last as long, and the engine is more likely to shut down due to acute fuel starvation from a clogged primary filter.

http://www.cruisingworld.com/article.jsp?ID=200162&typeID=396&catID=570