E-30 toe rails

[mjsouleman]

I have been looking at the outer rails on my E-30+ lately as a source of water intrusion.

Inital search began when I was unable to move slide due to bolt heads protruding. Attempts to unscrew the bolts proved futile except for a few that came out. These had some sort of mastic on threads. Those that did not unscrew simply spun leaving me to think either the female threads were stripped or there were nuts on the underside

Question: Does anyone know how the outer rails were built? I would like to remove the rail to repair cracks and such.

 

[Loren Beach]

Does anyone know how the outer rails were built?

Trying to imagine the situation, but I am confused, of course that's normal for me...
Are you referring to the aluminum "cover" over the hull/deck flange?

 

[Frank Langer]

Mark,
Are you asking about the toe rail on the outside of the hull/deck joint, or the tracks that the jib car/sheets slide on?
Frank

 

[mjsouleman]

yes

 

[Dave G.]

yes

? Yes to jib track ? You said a few came out. What type of threads did they have ? My inboard track has phillips head bolts with nuts so I would think the rail track would be same but have not yet had to remove any.

 

[mjsouleman]

Question: Are you asking about the toe rail on the outside of the hull/deck joint
Answer: Yes, that is what I am asking

Statement: What type of threads did they have ? My inboard track has Phillips head bolts with nuts
Answer: That is what I expected.

Concern: 1) Most of the bolts are loose, 2) some are protruding, 3) some I was able to unscrew by hand, 3) most just spun

Project: I would like seal and secure the hull to deck joint bolts

 

[Frank Langer]

Mark,
On my 1984 E30+ the deck/hull joint is fibre glassed to seal it, and I think that is true for most Ericson models, and one of the things that sets Ericsons apart from other builders who simply caulked or bolted the deck to the hull. The toe rail/rub rail on my boat is aluminum (some models had rubber inserts) and is secured with screws, not bolts. Several of those screws penetrated the fibreglass joint and leaked at the deck/hull joint. I removed those screws, cut the length a bit, reinserted them and filled the hole from the inside with marine tex epoxy, which solved the leaks problem.
My inside and outside jib tracks are bolted through the deck with 1/4 inch bolts with a Philips head about every three inches along the track. I can see most of these by unzipping my head liner, but in a few places I don't have access due to inside cabinetry. I would hate to have to try to remove these tracks, though someone creative might have figured out a way to do so. Mine have never leaked, and I can see factory caulking squeezing around some of the bolts from inside by the nuts, so I think the factory did a pretty good job installing these.
I hope this gives you some helpful information, but if not ask some more.
Frank

 

[mjsouleman]

Frank,

"My jib tracks are bolted through the deck with 1/4 inch bolts with a Philips head about every three inches along the track. I can see most of these by unzipping my head liner, but in a few places I don't have access due to inside cabinetry. I would hate to have to try to remove these tracks, though someone creative might have figured out a way to do so. Mine have never leaked, and I can see factory caulking squeezing around some of the bolts from inside by the nuts, so I think the factory did a pretty good job installing these."

The thumbnail below is what we are talking about. Note jib track is not shown in this diagram. The 1/4 by 3 inch bolts that hold the jib track are the issue. Sounds like you have already looked into this issue and come to a reasonable conclusion. For now I will continue to evaluate the problem and potential solutions.

Thank you for the help.

 

[Christian Williams]

So you have the aluminum rub rail (I think of a toe rail as something else).

We have had reports of leaks through the screws of the rub rail, or between the hull flanges (photo). Ericson wrapped the joint in heavy roving, but structural roving can have gaps, and isn't necessarily watertight.

Sometimes the rub rail screws, which actually tend to be installed into the gap, simply penetrated too far, admitting water. Sometimes they have gone missing over the years (Ericson used only minimal depth screws, subsequent owners may have replaced with much longer ones).

The solution to such rub rail leaks is to rebed the screws in bedding compound, or if the original holes are worn out, to epoxy them and redrill.

I filled the gaps with epoxy at the time of installing new rub rails.

 

[mjsouleman]

So you have the aluminum rub rail (I think of a toe rail as something else).

We have had reports of leaks through the screws of the rub rail, or between the hull flanges (photo). Ericson wrapped the joint in heavy roving, but structural roving can have gaps, and isn't necessarily watertight.

Sometimes the rub rail screws, which actually tend to be installed into the gap, simply penetrated too far, admitting water. Sometimes they have gone missing over the years (Ericson used only minimal depth screws, subsequent owners may have replaced with much longer ones).

The solution to such rub rail leaks is to rebed the screws in bedding compound, or if the original holes are worn out, to epoxy them and redrill.

I filled the gaps with epoxy at the time of installing new rub rails.

View attachment 47883

Christian,
I think of the toe rail as the raised part under the aluminum jib track (the E-30+ has an inner and outer jib track).

Last years project was to remove and re-bed the run rails, which I also filled the gap with peanut butter thick epoxy (your 2 cents at the time, thank you).

 

[mjsouleman]

? Yes to jib track ? You said a few came out. What type of threads did they have ? My inboard track has phillips head bolts with nuts so I would think the rail track would be same but have not yet had to remove any.

Dave,

Yes, the inner rail does have Phillips head bolts with nuts and are easy to reach, the outer rail underside is impossible to reach.

 

[Christian Williams]

I probably can't visualize the 30+ rail. A toe rail, generically, is there to keep "toes" from sliding off the boat, it's a sort of miniature bulwark.

But many boats design them to attach the hull and deck, and to hold blocks. I guess such an extrusion could act as a rub rail, too.

Got a picture handy? It's interesting to see how our various models were put together.

 

[mjsouleman]

Christian,

In the thumb nail, you see the aluminum jib rail sitting on the toe rail with jib lead block.

 

[Dave G.]

the outer rail underside is impossible to reach.

Yep, Don't know how you would get to the underside of those screws without major surgery.

 

[Dave G.]

A toe rail, generically, is there to keep "toes" from sliding off the boat

The 30+ models have inboard and outboard jib tracks. The outboard track is bolted to/through the top of the toe rail.

 

[Christian Williams]

Got it (finally). Same as my model, as you said, track on the toe rail.

As Frank commented, I'd hate to have to try to remove that toe-rail track. The inner track is bolted.

Is the toe rail track screwed down? I don't see how bolts could work there at least on my boat.

 

[Dave G.]

Is the toe rail track screwed down? I don't see how bolts could work there at least on my boat

That is the 64k question. Maybe Mark can tell us the thread type as he has removed a couple of those fasteners. Ericson could have bolted those down before they mated the hull to the deck maybe ?

 

[Loren Beach]

That is the 64k question. Maybe Mark can tell us the thread type as he has removed a couple of those fasteners. Ericson could have bolted those down before they mated the hull to the deck maybe ?

That is, unfortunately, likely. On our model every part/fitting of the deck was bedded into place and thru bolted... before the deck was lowered onto the hull flange, and then they glassed ALL of the interior bulkheads to the deck. In a few cases this glass work went partly over the nuts and backing plates of tracks. I had to carefully 'Dremel" some bits of filler and laminate lumps out to remove all the tracks from the deck before we painted it. Our vibrating cutting tool was also used for some of this work. Mild swearing, at the indifference of the Universe, may have also been involved.

I sure do appreciate their (Successful) efforts to make a monocoque structure out of the whole hull/deck/interior, but it does present some interesting 'challenges' when removing deck hardware later on, a few decades.

 

[Dave G.]

Attempts to unscrew the bolts proved futile except for a few that came out

Mark, the $64k question....did those bolts have machine threads or ?

 

[mjsouleman]

Mark, the $64k question....did those bolts have machine threads or ?

The bolts do have machine threads.

Got it (finally). Same as my model, as you said, track on the toe rail.

As Frank commented, I'd hate to have to try to remove that toe-rail track. The inner track is bolted.

Is the toe rail track screwed down? I don't see how bolts could work there at least on my boat.

View attachment 47899

Christian,

Like your setup, the toe rail track is bolted down every few inches.

I was able to remove several bolts (Dave G: pictures of bolts coming) that had popped up but others just spun. Could be nuts are frozen on those that spun; Could be nuts came loose on those that were removed.

All is unknown except for the difficulty to remove the jib track.

Why remove the jib track?
Answer: to repair damage (cracks and such) to the toe rail.