Hybrid propulsion system
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Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
What's the point?
If you charge the battery with a diesel you may as well eliminate the battery and the motor and turn the prop with the diesel.
My understanding of hybrid cars is that they only make sense because they are subsidized. Nobody is going to subsidize you to go sailing.
If you charge the battery with a diesel you may as well eliminate the battery and the motor and turn the prop with the diesel.
My understanding of hybrid cars is that they only make sense because they are subsidized. Nobody is going to subsidize you to go sailing.
Sven
Seglare
If that were true there would be no point in diesel-electric locomotives.
One advantage of hybrid is that you can run the internal combustion engine at the sweet spot in the power-rpm curve and use the electric at the needed rpm. You can also couple the IC engine and the motor for more power than the engine alone could put out.
I'm not sure how those advantages work out for a boat but you at least have the possibility of re-generation.
For a superficial intro to hybrid uses take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_electric
-Sven
Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
Sven - You hit it right on the nose. The locomotive can run on the sweet spot. Great for a locomotive that would otherwise need a super complex transmission to drive several axles from zero rpm to full speed at thousands of horsepower.
However this is not the situation on a small sailboat. We generally keep the engine at the sweet spot 98% of the time.
I think the real question becomes what problem are you trying to solve. Certainly not the cost of fuel or first cost.
I suspect this thread belongs in The Raftup, but would quickly develop into the realm of religion and politics.
However this is not the situation on a small sailboat. We generally keep the engine at the sweet spot 98% of the time.
I think the real question becomes what problem are you trying to solve. Certainly not the cost of fuel or first cost.
I suspect this thread belongs in The Raftup, but would quickly develop into the realm of religion and politics.
Sven
Seglare
Tom,
That would be my suspicion too, which is why I'm not sure what advantages would be for a sailboat.
I did actually investigate electric for La Petite. I was hoping it might be possible to use the electric motor for the 30 minutes leaving the marina and tying up at a can or anchoring. The charge would then have come from shore power and would have to be deep enough to last for maybe an hour of motoring per weekend. It would have been a hybrid because we'd still have to have limp-home power if there was absolutely no wind and some critical make-a-living time pressure.
There is (was ?) a National Geographic videographer (sp ?) near our old slip in MDR who did have an electric drive for his 30+/- foot sloop but I don't think he had the other half of the hybrid system.
There is one guy back in Sweden who had a write-up in the SXK magazine about trying to go electric with a hull covered in solar cells - ok during the midnight sun but not so good in the winter
.
My point in bringing up all these is that we're seeing the trade-space open up into untested areas and the only way to test them is to ... at least think about the possibilities.
-Sven
That would be my suspicion too, which is why I'm not sure what advantages would be for a sailboat.
I did actually investigate electric for La Petite. I was hoping it might be possible to use the electric motor for the 30 minutes leaving the marina and tying up at a can or anchoring. The charge would then have come from shore power and would have to be deep enough to last for maybe an hour of motoring per weekend. It would have been a hybrid because we'd still have to have limp-home power if there was absolutely no wind and some critical make-a-living time pressure.
There is (was ?) a National Geographic videographer (sp ?) near our old slip in MDR who did have an electric drive for his 30+/- foot sloop but I don't think he had the other half of the hybrid system.
There is one guy back in Sweden who had a write-up in the SXK magazine about trying to go electric with a hull covered in solar cells - ok during the midnight sun but not so good in the winter
.My point in bringing up all these is that we're seeing the trade-space open up into untested areas and the only way to test them is to ... at least think about the possibilities.
-Sven
Loosing Game
Direct Horsepower to the Prop is 90% Efficient Fuel to Work. Horsepower to a Generator is 70% Efficient Fuel to Work (Creating Electricity). Running a Generator to Create Electricity to Run a Prop is a Loosing Game. You are using 20% more Fuel for the same result Now....as you are able to Charge Batteries from Solar Cells, Wind Generation or Prop Generation you have an efficient use for the Hybrid. Hybrids that use the Grid for Charging are actually using MORE Fuel than an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) for the same amount of Work :nerd: Go Figure on a lot of supposed Green Ideas like running Cars on Alcohol from Corn. Converting Corn to Fuel is a 5-10%
gain at best when you figure in ALL the Fuel needed to grow the Corn and ALL the heat (Fuel again !) to turn it in to Alcohol. Obviously the best use for Alcohol is to Drink it !
Direct Horsepower to the Prop is 90% Efficient Fuel to Work. Horsepower to a Generator is 70% Efficient Fuel to Work (Creating Electricity). Running a Generator to Create Electricity to Run a Prop is a Loosing Game. You are using 20% more Fuel for the same result
Now....as you are able to Charge Batteries from Solar Cells, Wind Generation or Prop Generation you have an efficient use for the Hybrid. Hybrids that use the Grid for Charging are actually using MORE Fuel than an Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) for the same amount of Work :nerd: Go Figure on a lot of supposed Green Ideas like running Cars on Alcohol from Corn. Converting Corn to Fuel is a 5-10%gain at best when you figure in ALL the Fuel needed to grow the Corn and ALL the heat (Fuel again !) to turn it in to Alcohol. Obviously the best use for Alcohol is to Drink it !
Mikebat
Member III
This is what you want for your electric sailboat:
http://www.jobwerx.com/news/2005/headlines/id947027.html
http://www.jobwerx.com/news/2005/headlines/id947027.html
How About Upgrading Diesel Technology
It seems to me that applying diesel technology from the automotive industry to a marine application would be something to consider. My diesel is very simple, that's good. But, I can't help but wonder how much less fuel I would consume if I had better technology on board. I completely understand that a more complex system offers many more opportunities from expensive problems. Still, there should be some things that are tried and true that mariners can benefit from.
Paul
It seems to me that applying diesel technology from the automotive industry to a marine application would be something to consider. My diesel is very simple, that's good. But, I can't help but wonder how much less fuel I would consume if I had better technology on board. I completely understand that a more complex system offers many more opportunities from expensive problems. Still, there should be some things that are tried and true that mariners can benefit from.
Paul
Sven
Seglare
Sven
Seglare
I thought diesels were simple too, until I read Calder's detailed functional description. Even the non-turbo non-electronically optimized diesels leave me amazed that they work In Real Life given the tolerances and complexity involved. After reading that book I decided I didn't want anything but the simplest diesel possible onboard.
-Sven
I guess I should chime in here. As some of you know I have repowered my E27with an electric inboard. I'm totally sold on electric for my uses - day sailing and some over night stuff within 80 miles. Nothing comes close to the simplicity and cleanliness. The company that manufactures the motor that I have recently had an install on a Bristol 32 that is getting a 100 mile range on a charge.
My thoughts on hybrid (electric/ICE) is to keep the ICE generator small and removable. That way if you don't need to have more than a 50 - 100 mile range you don't have to have the generator on board and maintenance could be done in your garage. Obviously not everyone would be comfortable with that setup but that would be my first shot at hybrid. I would do something different if long term cruising.
I hesitate to post this stuff on a traditional sailing site because I know there is a lot of resistance and skepticism regarding electric propulsion in the sailboat community. But hey, this feels like family here
My thoughts on hybrid (electric/ICE) is to keep the ICE generator small and removable. That way if you don't need to have more than a 50 - 100 mile range you don't have to have the generator on board and maintenance could be done in your garage. Obviously not everyone would be comfortable with that setup but that would be my first shot at hybrid. I would do something different if long term cruising.
I hesitate to post this stuff on a traditional sailing site because I know there is a lot of resistance and skepticism regarding electric propulsion in the sailboat community. But hey, this feels like family here
Hybrid propulsion.
Mark, Coming from a two Prius owner, keep it coming. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Yanmar 3, Marina del Rey CA
Mark, Coming from a two Prius owner, keep it coming. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Yanmar 3, Marina del Rey CA
Mikebat
Member III
Looks like the efficiency would be kind of low but what a neat concept
-Sven
You're going to raise the sails anyway, even if they're only 20% as efficient as regular panels, you've got a lot more sail area than any solar panel has.
jmcpeak
Junior Viking
Erik,
I'm not aware of any affordable solutions - but I can tell you what my dream cruising sailboat would be
An Atlantic 42 Catamaran by Chris White Designs that has a single diesel genset powering an electric motor in each hull.
Somebody already makes it - Solomon Technologies
Pros:
- Only requires 1 diesel engine, not 2
- When I want creature comforts like the stink potters have- my sailboat already comes pre-equipped
- Existing battery bank that can be charged by solar when just sitting at anchor
- Silent motoring while on batteries - that would really be nice
Cons:
- More complicated electronics
- Not a proven idea
- Who fixes it if it goes wrong?
- Cost
But, like I said - it's a dream. Meanwhile I'll sail my 81' Ericson with a tractor motor from Wisconsin powering it and be happy.
I'm not aware of any affordable solutions - but I can tell you what my dream cruising sailboat would be
An Atlantic 42 Catamaran by Chris White Designs that has a single diesel genset powering an electric motor in each hull.
Somebody already makes it - Solomon Technologies
Pros:
- Only requires 1 diesel engine, not 2
- When I want creature comforts like the stink potters have- my sailboat already comes pre-equipped
- Existing battery bank that can be charged by solar when just sitting at anchor
- Silent motoring while on batteries - that would really be nice
Cons:
- More complicated electronics
- Not a proven idea
- Who fixes it if it goes wrong?
- Cost
But, like I said - it's a dream. Meanwhile I'll sail my 81' Ericson with a tractor motor from Wisconsin powering it and be happy.
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
The closest boat to the E35 they list as a customer is the Hunter 33, so as I see it, for my boat I would need:
12 X Group 31 batteries, weight 828 lbs.
ST 74 drive unit 143.5 lbs.
A 16" propeller
All sorts of 144V and therefore expensive chebangery.
I am also not sure I would want to drop a screwdriver across the terminals of a 144V DC system.
I think a diesel would be preferable - at least until another means is found for storing electrical energy that is smaller and lighter than lead acid.
Gareth
Freyja E35 241 1972
12 X Group 31 batteries, weight 828 lbs.
ST 74 drive unit 143.5 lbs.
A 16" propeller
All sorts of 144V and therefore expensive chebangery.
I am also not sure I would want to drop a screwdriver across the terminals of a 144V DC system.
I think a diesel would be preferable - at least until another means is found for storing electrical energy that is smaller and lighter than lead acid.
Gareth
Freyja E35 241 1972
Here's one example
http://huberman.org/prestissimo/
You might want to email Mr. Huberman, and ask how his hybrid is working out. I watched this boat being constructed.
Once on his web site, click on "propulsion."
Loren
http://huberman.org/prestissimo/
You might want to email Mr. Huberman, and ask how his hybrid is working out. I watched this boat being constructed.
Once on his web site, click on "propulsion."
Loren
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
That Solomon technologies say it may slow the boat by up to a knot leads me to this guesstimate for the E35:
Power required to move at 6 kts is about 30% (efficiency) of 18HP from the engine = 4.5 kW
Slow down by one knot - call it power reduction of 1 kW
Efficiency of turning it into electrical power 80% = 66A at 12V.
While that is a pretty wild estimate, I have a towed water turbine that gives about 10A at 12V, but it is limited by the practicality of size to throw overboard and tow by cable. With a prop, those restrictions would be eliminated, so 70A or thereabouts seems a reasonable guess.
Other than in less than about 7kts of breeze, I doubt generating from the prop would be all that noticeable in slowing the boat down - in many conditions you could just carry a bit more sail.
The only suggested technology on the horizon I have heard of to avoid having to carry half a ton of batteries to motor 10nm is something like this:
http://www.sail-world.com/Cruising/Green-Sailboat-Dream-Wins-Award-for-Inventor/50939
The prototype made four years ago that I mentioned in another thread seems to have been caught up in a legal dispute:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/02/prweb507844.htm
What the results of their tests were I have never found out - you would think if it had looked a potential financial success it would have been developed by now; unless an oil baron bought them up and shut them down.
Gareth
Freyja E35 241 1972
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Dan,
I have seen 4 amps @ 48 volts on my boat (E27, SolidNav Explorer) while sailing at about 6 knots. I really have no idea how much electricity I produce. I generally day sail and plug in at the slip at the end of the day so I don't pay much attention to it. I know you have to have a motor controller that will allow for regeneration (at least with a permanent magnate brushless motor). I asked Jason at SolidNav about regeneration and he said that what you will see more than amps is higher voltage. My battery monitor is down below so I haven't watched it enough to get an idea of what's going on regarding regeneration. I recently added a brake to my shaft so I can stop the prop from freewheeling. It's a bit faster and quieter while sailing.
I have seen 4 amps @ 48 volts on my boat (E27, SolidNav Explorer) while sailing at about 6 knots. I really have no idea how much electricity I produce. I generally day sail and plug in at the slip at the end of the day so I don't pay much attention to it. I know you have to have a motor controller that will allow for regeneration (at least with a permanent magnate brushless motor). I asked Jason at SolidNav about regeneration and he said that what you will see more than amps is higher voltage. My battery monitor is down below so I haven't watched it enough to get an idea of what's going on regarding regeneration. I recently added a brake to my shaft so I can stop the prop from freewheeling. It's a bit faster and quieter while sailing.
Keep that Beer Cold
Well lets see....4A@48V is 16A@12V. Thats 16AH of Charging. My storage is 200AH@50%=100AH Draw. My fridge uses 5Ax24hr=120A/day. That means that Sailing for 8-10 hrs/day will keep my fridge running...now your talking ! Alright I'm quitting my job and sailing every day and drinking cold Beer
Well lets see....4A@48V is 16A@12V. Thats 16AH of Charging. My storage is 200AH@50%=100AH Draw. My fridge uses 5Ax24hr=120A/day. That means that Sailing for 8-10 hrs/day will keep my fridge running...now your talking ! Alright I'm quitting my job and sailing every day and drinking cold Beer