Hybrid propulsion system

C

chaco

Member III
Prop Shaft / Alternator Install

As we can Charge at say 50A@6 knots off the Shaft (Prestissimo article) it looks like running an alternator off the shaft would be plenty of power to keep our House Batteries charged for the loads during Sailing. Has anyone fooled around with this :confused: Looks like all you get is maybe 5nm on (12) 80AH 12V Batteries before you need to Charge...not much for ALL that technology. I also would have the motor and generator lined up so I could run on the motor direct to the shaft for fuel efficiency.
 
sveinutne

sveinutne

Member III
This is from an other thread, but maybe it is better here.
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I was a bit frustrated with this ”vedlegg 3”, so I called the person in charge of the CE certification. Then it was clear to me why the engine had to go. We have the same Perkins running in Norway, and it is OK, but when you import a boat into EU, it has to comply with the new regulation and meet the new high standards for noise and emission. Engines older then 2003 will often have problems with this. If I buy a new engine, the producer will have to provide this certificates, and I will have an easy time getting it certified, but for a used engine, I have to show new test proving the engine still perform better then regulations demands. So now I am looking at YANMAR 3JH4E with 38-40hp. I am also looking at the possibility to use hydraulic transmission, and then I can also put in an extra pump that is hocked up to an electric motor. I am now looking for used electric motor with controller in the 10-30KW range. Then I do not need the gearbox that is in front of the YANMAR engine, and get full rpm on the hydraulic pump. Then I will run it electric in and out of harbors, and will have backwards and forwards electric, and when I am out in the open sea and need to go forward for a long time, I start the diesel engine and let it take over. Then the electric engine can push too and get 60hp on the propeller or the electric can put in reverse so the batteries are recharge and only 20-30 hp goes to the propeller. The electric controller will give the possibility to have seamless intervals from full forward till full regenerating of batteries. But I have a long time to think about this before I start buying components for this system.
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Sven

Sven

Seglare
WWII electric mini-sub

From http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-sci-minisub7-2009dec07,0,6991792.story

The two-man, 80-foot-long sub in question does not have a name of its own. Each of the five subs in the attack was carried by a conventional submarine and took its name from the mother boat. It is thus called the I-16-tou -- tou being Japanese for boat. Powered by a 600-horsepower electric motor, the sub could reach underwater speeds of 19 knots, twice as fast as many of the U.S. subs of the day.
Click to expand...

Sounds pretty impressive considering how long ago it was ! Of course, it is only "hybrid" while attached to the mother-ship for charging :)


-Sven
 
T

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
FWIW I'm trying to get rid of the engine as a battery charger in my next cruising boat. A combination of wind, solar, and possibly shaft driven battery charging along with a tankless gas fired hot water heater.

I want to only run my engine to move the boat. That seems to me the best way. This hybrid stuff is real neat until you are in some third world country trying to figure out how to get it fixed and your visa is expiring....

Now if I could afford lithium batteries that would be something. You can run 100% depth of discharge with no issues. So I am told anyway. This would double my battery bank on the same footprint, but from what I hear they would cost several grand, or more than a new set of sails. What say yee energy geeks on the lithium batteries for crusisng boats?
 
R

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Ted,
I fly electric RC aircraft and I can tell you that Lithium Polymer technology is pretty spectacular. The LiPo's I have for my little models easily deliver 3-4 times the capacity of the old NiCd and NiMh batteries and with a pretty spectacular maximum amp peak available. A Chinese company just started producing a FULL SIZED aircraft powered by an electric motor and LiPo batteries. The factory was just completed. Several other makers are following suit.

The negative to LiPo batteries is that they are very finicky about charging. They have been known to catch on fire and burn, at a very high temperature, while producing toxic, corrosive smoke, if not charged correctly. They must never be discharged below 3volts per cell and never charged over 4.2volts per cell. To do this is risking a fire. They also should be monitored for temperature while charging. Charging is actually done by the cell, that is, each cell in a pack is charged independently, by a fairly sophisticated charger. Most people I know charge them in a fireproof housing. That said, handled correctly and with some respect, they are great. I don't think that they are any more dangerous than anything else if you are paying attention.

RT
 
brianb00

brianb00

O - 34
lithium battery

I was shown a battery installation in a Santa Cruz 52 last week. The batteries were a 1/3 the weight of equivalent lead acid, similar AH rating, and could be charged and discharged at much higher rates than Lead batteries. The discharge can be taken much deeper then lead and have about 10X the number of discharge cycles, as claimed by the manuf.

A bit of research beyond the marketing brochure seems to indicate that accelerated charge rates decrease life time. Of course they are sensitive, as stated elsewhere, to fire if abused.

Note, the ocean racing Cat, Playstation was nearly destroyed when their LiPoly battery pack caught fire due to application of the wrong type of charger.

As I recall the battery pack on the SC 52 cost $2800 for 200AH.

Brian
 
T

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Ok so lets hear more about these batteries on the SC 52. What brand? What charging parameters? Were they Litium?


$2800 in not that much for batteries when you consider what a pair of 8D AGMs will set you back.
 
steven

steven

Sustaining Member
Any suggestions on generators? Probably something in the 3 - 5 kW range. How about a generator optimized for DC output?

I like electric, but the battery storage just doesn't seem to be there yet. To go even 50 or 60 miles, seems like you need a couple thousand pounds of batteries costing thousands of dollars (even for conventional). For getting to and from the dock, looks fine, but when the wind dies, appears that you need ICE.

Does electric make sense if you haver a genset backing it up?

--Steve
 
brianb00

brianb00

O - 34
Genasun Li - Fe battery pack

ted_reshetiloff said:
Ok so lets hear more about these batteries on the SC 52. What brand? What charging parameters? Were they Litium?


$2800 in not that much for batteries when you consider what a pair of 8D AGMs will set you back.
Click to expand...

Hi,

Missed this message, sorry for late reply.

Here is the manuf. I was referring to in my note: http://www.genasun.com/genasunbattery.shtml

Acutally if you account for discharge cycles the cost of these batteries look pretty good.

Brian
 
Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Steven,

I can easily get that range (60+ nautical miles) on my 560 lbs of AGM batteries and 10 kw peak power brush-less electric motor. Eight 12 volt AGM batteries cost me $1400.

A generator could be a good addition to electric propulsion for cruising or berthing/mooring without shore power. But I'm not sure what you gain other than not having to run the gas engine every time you go sailing, you're still dealing with the maintenance of an ICE.
 
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brianb00

brianb00

O - 34
Range on batteries

Hello Mark,

I guess what you gain is how many times you can travel that 60 miles before battery replacement. The AGM's can probably live through 300 deep discharges, and that is what you would do if you went the 60 miles prior to charging. The Li-Fe can do 4000 cycles of deep discharge , according to the specs from this manuf and others. So ultimately you would save money if that was the use model for your batteries. However if you keep your batteries topped off and really don't discharge them very far the life time is much better.

The energy density is much higher as you can see from the data. Hence the SC52 owner, and many other racers, drop these in for weight savings.

I am not advocating these batteries at all. I have no real need to shave 60 lbs from the 120 lbs of batteries i have aboard. I do find that when on extended runs I am firing up the engine to keep my batteries frequently to keep batteries from getting to low. I use one 50watt solar panel but it can't keep up with the autopilot in heavier conditions, hence the battery drain.

Brian

Mark F said:
Steven,

I can easily get that range (60+ nautical miles) on my 560 lbs of AGM batteries and 10 kw peak power brush-less electric motor. Eight 12 volt AGM batteries cost me $1400.

A generator could be a good addition to electric propulsion for cruising or berthing/mooring without shore power. But I'm not sure what you gain other than not having to run the gas engine every time you go sailing, you're still dealing with the maintenance of an ICE.
Click to expand...
 
steven

steven

Sustaining Member
Mark,

That might work (for me - not necessarily for everyone). What is the total amp-hr capacity of your battery bank?

--Steve
 
Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Steve,

There are two separate 48 volt banks for propulsion and one for the house on
'Lotus Flower". One bank is 92 ah and the other 110 ah.

I like the separate banks for a lot of reasons but the most important to me is redundancy. If something goes wrong with one bank you have a healthy bank ready to go. I think it is unlikely to have a catastrophic, out-of-the-blue entire battery bank failure, but a slow degradation due to a failing battery will drop your range.
 
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