Transducer(s) leaking

[Akavishon]

First of all, friendly greetings to all the fellow Vikings!

I am a fresh (and very happy) owner of a beautiful '86 E32-3, hull #678. It's my 1st boat ever, so I've been working my way up the (steep!) learning curve and intensively consuming EY.org and other sites for over 2 months now ... I must say, EY.org rocks, it's jam-packed with useful information, I've learned a lot here and want to thank you all - and especially the creator/admin - for making it the most prominent Ericson information resource on the web!

That brings me to the water-in-the-bilge issue. Over the past few weeks, I've mostly tracked down the sources of my problems, so maybe I'm just looking to say hello to the forum, confirm my understanding of the E32 bilge configuration, and get some advice on how to proceed.

On my boat, there seem to be two main leak sources:

a) Rain coming down the mast. Most of it goes directly into the shower sump (just aft of the mast), but some of it occasionally leaks through the mast step onto the sole. I figured this was not worth fixing - easily dealt with by tying a towel around the mast base, and pumping out the sump occasionally (or let the auto sump pump deal with it).

b) Salt water. I'm taking on a bucket-full of salt water each time I go out for a few hours. The amount depends on the conditions - more aggressive sailing will yield more water in the bilge. Worst of all, when the boat is strongly heeled, the water spills out of the shallow bilge and soaks the sole and the cabinetry. Based on your comments, I figure this is a lot of water, and needs fixing.

In my quest for the source, I've finally arrived at the depth and knotmeter transducers mounted under the v-berth. The knotmeter is replaced with a plug, but the area appears very moist, and the wooden backing plates on both through-hulls are soaked. From what I can tell, it looks like one (or both) transducers are admitting water, which drains into the bilge compartment forward of the mast, then runs under the mast step, below the shower sump, filling the bilge compartments aft of the shower sump. This would suggest that all bilge compartments are connected by a sub-bilge, which I think I confirmed by completely drying the visible bilge compartments, then sticking a small oil pump hose into one of the limber holes and pulling out at least a quart of very smelly water.

Where to go from here? I don't suppose the transducer through-hulls can be worked on in the water? What does it take to fix them? What would more experienced Vikings recommend? Summer sailing days are very precious, so I'm a bit apprehensive to haul/fix right away, but the amount of water is disconcerting, and slowly but surely ruins my sole ...

TIA for any advice - Zoran

 

[Shadowfax]

Leaks

Zoran,

Ericsons do leak at the mast. Mine leaks mostly because of the number of holes at the mast head and other various opening in the mast.

I remove the bilge covers in the cabin sole near the mast when I leave the boat. This allows the water to flow freely into the bilge and not soak and thus rot, the bilge covers.

The other leak sounds like it might be greater then the transducer fittings. If you have buckets of water you should almost be able to see the water coming in. Have you checked the stuffing box? This is where most water gets in if it is not adjusted right or it is worn. If that is tight and not leaking [check also with the engine in gear] then I'd get the food coloring out and put some in the bilge in the area of the transducer and see if it moves on its own towards the pick up. I'd also use a different color at the other end of the boat and this will show you at least from what direction the leak is coming from. Check all your through hulls and the plumbing drains under the sinks. You would be amazed by where leaks originate.

Have fun

 

[Akavishon]

Paul - thanks for your reply. I think I've given up on the rain (for the time being) - the transducer leak seems more urgent. I've checked the cockpit drains (dry), rudder gland (just barely dripping), prop shaft (PSS dripless - dry), below sink in galley (tiny localized puddle - ignore), below sink in head (dry), and transducer area (wet, water visible).

Is there any alternative to hauling the boat and getting it fixed now, in mid-season? What are my options?

 

[Geoff Johnson]

To my knowledge the sump before the mast is not connected to the other bilges. If the boat heels sufficiently, the water could run out and around the boat. If the water is coming from the transducers then it is either past the O-rings, if they are removable, or past the interface where the lip contacts the hull. Have you tried tightening the nut against the backing plate? Is the wood backing plate spongy?

Another possibility is leaking through the hull/keel joint. Has the keel been rebedded (should be done every 10 years or so). When I bought my boat, there was a brown stain on the keel from a leak. As you can see from other posts on this site, people have had to replace their keel bolts because the hull/keel seam has failed so this should be investigated as soon as possible.

 

[newgringo]

My 2 Bits & bilge pump modification

Zoran,
I guess before I would haul for transducer remount I would make real sure they are the source of the salt H2O leak. The anchor locker if not sealed and drained properly may also allow water to drain into the xducer area. Not sure what else can admit water, but there may be some. Sounds like a good sailing trip with all the V Berth cushions, covers, drawers etc removed and an observer riding up there may be in order. Understand and concur on the short sailing season.
Also, I kind of like the idea of trying to tighten the threaded nuts securing the xducers. I think they are plastic so go easy on the wrenching. I would think it would be easy to tell if they had worked loose. There may also be some goop em pucky that might seal a leak under water (on the outside of the hull?). There is such stuff for swimming pools. This may be a brain fart.
Now another idea if you can live with the leak till winter haul. I modified the shower bilge (where I think the xducer leaks would drain to) pump switch to turn on at very low water levels. I did that by gluing a ping pong ball to the underside on the float switch float. The factory (or whoever did it) float switch install just did not work very well. But it sure does now. OBTW, a little household bleach in the bilges helps keep the smells more tolerable.

 

[jreddington]

Another way to confirm or deny leakage through the transducers is to build a dam around them with plumbers putty. If the pool fills up and spills over, it's the transducers. If the area within the dam stays dry it's water flowing by them.

If it's the transducers it could be two things. A bad seal of the o-ring between the transducer and the o-ring. When my transducers were replaced by DMI they advised lubricating them with winch grease. If you have a plug that came with the transducers, you could do a quick pull, inspect o-rings, grease and replace. (Make sure the o-rings on the plug are OK before you do this.)

Or, as in my case, the through hull has to be rebedded. This is a haul out job, in my case, since the leak was small, an off season project.

Remove the nut and any wood backing "washers". Pick away at the sealant as much as you can before twisting and pushing the through hull out. Clean up the hole in your hull with a little sandpaper. I replaced the wooden "washers". the old ones were rotted and I fabricated new ones completely encapsulating them in a couple coats of West epoxy.

Then just lay in a good bed of sealant, reassemble, and wipe up.

 

[Akavishon]

All - this is already helping a lot, thanks for all your replies.

Geoff - I suspect the fore and aft bilges are connected. Will check later this week by dumping water into the fore bilge and observing whether it spreads aft. My PO also thinks they are connected. We really need to get to the bottom (pun intended ) of this bilge configuration issue!

The keel was dropped, reglassed and rebedded couple of years ago. The PO feels strongly that the yard had done a good job and the bolts should be good. The bilge/bolts look very good, probably cleaner than my fridge at home (joke! ).

The wooden backing plates are spongy - I can chip away at them with my fingernail. Have not worked the nuts yet ... don't quite know what the whole transducer assembly looks like in daylight, awkward using a light/mirror and trying to 'see' with my fingers around the corner ...

I like the idea of doing a sail with an observer (that would be me). Also like building a barrier around the transducers ... my new prime suspect is the anchor locker, or maybe its drain. If it's leaky, that could explain why I'm taking on water when moving (drain cuts into waves), but not while in slip. The water could then run down past the transducers (keeping them wet and spongy), and from there into the bilge. Just a theory, but sounds plausible, and easy to verify - I could simply smear some silicone over the anchor locker drain, from outside, and see what happens.

Ah, this will be a fun weekend

 

[Geoff Johnson]

First, I would not put bleach in the bilge as one poster suggested if you value your keel bolts.

Second, the bilge before the mast is deeper that the other bilges and does collect water. The only way to remove it is to stick a pump down the hole just in front of the mast. This area by itself can hold at least a gallon of water and I find that if I don't keep it reasonably dry, then water will slosh forward (my boat is on a mooring) and keep the transducer backing plates wet. However, all the bilge spaces are connected in the sense that the bilge wells are just indentations in the triaxial force grid which was glued to the interior of the hull. The limber holes in each well opens them up to any water sloshing around in the hull...If you have enough water to wet your sole, then you have a substantial leak somewhere.

Third, another possibility is the drain hose from the anchor locker. When the boat is underway, that outlet is often submerged and any break in that hose will cause water to flow into the boat. If you can plug the outlet, see if you can back water up in the bottom of the anchor locker. Pray that this is the not problem because there is no access to the drain hose (unlike the 35-3 which has an access door).

Fourth, as for the transducers, they are a pain to get to, but I have found that with one of those mirrors on a stick and a flashlight, you can see them.

Finally, this probably doesn't apply since you say it is salt water, but I had a mysterious leak in my boat until I discovered that one of the cockpit drain lines had split (crappy OEM spiral hose) and rain water would collect in the bilge. You are always going to have water in the bilge because there is no way to stop it from coming down inside the mast. The 35-3 mast at least penetrates the sole so the water goes into the bilge, but on out boat it runs over the sole.

 

[Akavishon]

Geoff - you're correct: the fore-of-mast bilge is deeper, and will hold water even when the main bilge compartments are dry. Also, they are all connected via limber holes, so water spreads between them. However, pumping out the main bilges will still leave some water in the fore-of-mast bilge.

Which brings me to my "transducer" problem:

I generously smeared silicone on the bow where the drain hose exits. In a moment of nautical inspiration, I even taped the damn thing over with duct-tape (I don't intend to leave the tape there - it will prevent the anchor locker from draining rain). Not trusting the silicone and tape, I used spray foam to build a little dam forward of the transducer area, then dried the transducer wooden backing plates with a hairdryer, stripped the old caulking (rotten) and generously applied layers of new caulk. The whole area has been reasonably dry since, excluding trace amounts of water which I think come up from the fore-of-mast bilge when the boat moves around.

And what do I find after a day of sailing? A dry transducer area, and a couple of gallons of salt water in the bilge .

I had several people on board, the stern was low and I suspect water pressed up into the rudder post higher than usual, leaking (generously) under the corroded packing gland.

I tightened the nuts on the gland as much as I could, but the water really leaks under the lower rim of the lower plate. While tightening the nuts, I noticed that the whole green assembly (upper and lower plate) easily rotate a few degress left or right, together - I suspect that shouldn't be so? Also, doesn't the rudder post look a bit hand-made? Is that how it looks on your boats as well?

Photo attached ...

thank you, Zoran

 

[NateHanson]

Have you looked at the rudder post while sailing?

If your collecting a bucket of water each time you go out, I would suspect it's something that is affected by the forces of sailing or motoring. I don't expect transducers know much of a difference between sailing and sitting at the dock. The rudder gland, on the other hand, gets a lot of stress when sailing, so it would be a good suspect. Also your anchor locker drain idea makes sense.

I think with a leak that major, you'll be able to see it. So go sailing, and look around until you find the culprit.

 

[Mindscape]

Rudder Post Leak

The rudder post on my 32-3 leaked quite a bit when sailing hard or motoring in rough seas. I watched it under sail and saw the same small rotation you mentioned. As I watched I also discovered that the rotation causes the bolts to loosen and the problem starts to get worse. I tighted the bolts and the problem stopped for a little while then came back as the bolts loosened. Unitl I get a chance to drop the rudder I'm assuming the issue is the bolt holes have elongated and allow the rotation to occur. My fix (unitl dropping the rudder) has been to replace the bolts with longer allen head fastners and nylon locking nuts. This seems to of stemed the tide, and has allowed me to tighten the flange enough so the packing is working and the rotation has stopped. I'm not promoting this as the ultimate fix, but it has made life a lot better until I can pull the rudder, replace the packing, fix the elongated holes (assuming this is the issue) and put it all back together.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

My rudder post has a "hand made" look (probably the result of working in a confined space), but it is not green (leaking) and there is a space between the packing gland rings to allow for tightening. However, I have had my rudder dropped and the lower bronze bushing was replaced with Delrin to remove the play. I assume the packing was replaced at the time. Unfortunately, you will find that on boats of our vintage, everything has to be replaced.

 

[Graham Cole]

BTW If those x-ducers are plastic/Valox, I would hesitate to re use the wooden back washer. Might swell and crack the 'ducer. My$.02.

 

[gfilipi]

'86 32-3 - with the same problem

I am also a new owner of an '86 E32-3. It is also my first boat. I am experiencing the exact same "water in the bilge" problem as well. Everytime I take the boat out I shop vac about 5 gallons out of the bilge. It' definately salt water and not fresh water. When the boat is at dock, no water fills the bilges. Whenever I'm at sail or underpower my bilges constantly take in water.

I was getting some reverse siphoning through the bilge pump and I put a check valve in (temporary fix - will fix with vented loop later). After I put the check valve in, I had less water in the bilges but still take on water in the bilges.

I have also checked Cockpit drains, stuffing box, below sink and every other area that I thought it could be coming in. The only thing I haven't tried is siliconing around the the anchor locker drain, but it sounds like that won't do any good either.

Most of my water comes in the main bilge area (second back from the bilge behind the mast. I always have water in the hidden bilge area in front of the mast as well. When I have a lot of water in the bilges I get some water seepage into the bilge directly behind the mast.

Per the surveyor, the Keel bolts and everything checked out. I absolutely cannot figure out where the water is coming in from.

Has anyone had any luck tracking down the problem?

Gene
1986 E32-3

 

[Frank Langer]

Gene,

Just to add to your investigation process, I have the same or similar experience with my 1984 E30+, which is totally dry while at the dock, and has about a gallon of salt water in the bilge after an afternoon sail (so it's not just your size/style of boat). I also have checked all seacocks and the depthsounder transducer and there is no sign of leaking. I have a dripless prop shaft seal which is also dry, and no leaks under the engine. The rudder post was greased this spring, with no sign of water leaking, but I have not crawled in there to check it for dampness after a sail. There is no indication of a leak in the deck/hull joint, and I think that's unlikely anyway as they are bolted and then glassed over--seems to be a strong point for Ericsons.

At this point, by process of elimination, I am suspecting my rudder post, but am not sure. If I find anything, I'll add a follow-up post.

Frank.

 

[ref_123]

Packing gland?

Gene,

did you check if water comes through the packing gland where the shaft goes through the hull? If it was not repacked/tightened, it can leak quite a bit...

Regards,
Stan

 

[gfilipi]

Re: Packing Glan & Rudder Post

The packing gland was repacked and re-adjusted last month by the yard. I haven't watched it while motoring or sailing. I have everything apart in back and will have my wife motor while I check the packing gland and the rudder post. I didn't consider those to be an option, unless that the water can seep under the engine bilge pan. About a drip a minute comes out. The hose on the packing/stuffing box needs to be replaced and I plan on doing that on the next haul out in the spring.

The first bilge, by the steps is always dry which comes in from the engine bilge and the area under the sink. The main bilge fills up and then the bilge that has the whale gusher hand pump starts to fill as well.

 

[Akavishon]

Gene, which hull# do you have?

On my boat, I figured out the main leaks:

a) rudder packing gland - definitely a major leak, I can see it when I crawl back into the quarterberth and remove the wooden access panel. I can also see the water flowing through the bilge compartment under the companionway stairs, and further down into the main bilge.

b) anchor well drain hose. Not sure if it's leaky at the point where it leaves the anchor well, or where it exists the hull. If you have a leak there, water will be flowing from the bow, down the centerline (under the v-berth, past the area where the transducers are mounted) and into the bilge area forward of the mast. From there it may spread aft, if there's enough water.

c) rain down the mast. Fills the sump and mast step, then overflows and spills across my sole (sniff).

I also observed the bilge pump backflooding, but a check valve fixed it for me, and I don't intend to improve that with a vented loop ...

cheers, Zoran

 

[gfilipi]

Water

Zoran,

My Hull id # is ERY32680L586, So I think the hull #680. I'm taking the boat out in a few hours to check the rudder post.

Gene

 

[gfilipi]

Update to Water in the Bilge

I was running out of sunlight and gooped some silicon around the drain tube of the anchor locker. I did a quick job and will do a better job in the sunlight. I took it out for a sea test for about an hour in calm water except hitting a few big tug boat waves so the bow dipped into the water and came back and only had about 1.5 inches (approx a gallon or so) of water in the main main bilge and a little secondary bilge.

It is a definite improvement from what was before.

I cleaned the bottom tonight. It turned out taking a lot longer than I planned. I got almost 6.3 knots at a vibrating 2600 RPM. 5.8 at 2200rpm. It's almost a knot faster than I was getting. I didn't know that a fouled bottom could reduce speed that much. I ordered a campbell sailer prop. From what I read on the the board, the vibration should go away and I should attend hullspead from 2200 to 2400 rpm. Hull speed should be 6.8 (square root of water line X 1.34)

Question: How do you know when the zincs are bad on the propeller shaft. Is there a trick to replacing them or is it something I should have a diver do?