Tracking down a leak on E 38

[rbaron]

Question 1: After a vigorous 6 hour shakedown sail in 30 knots of wind our newly acquired E 38 has developed a hard to track leak that adds an inch an hour of salt water to the bilge level even when the boat is in the slip with engine off and the seacocks closed. The stuffing box and thru hulls in the cabin and head are dry. The speedo impellor thru-hull is dry. I will soon check the seacocks for the cockpit drains. My only other thought is that there could be seepage at the keel bolts. The vessel was surveyed a month ago and the bolts were fine then. Any ideas, friends? Am I missing a likely source of leakage? Given salt taste of the water I don't think that the leak is ships water but we'll check that too.
Question 2: To test the keel bolts I am assuming I pump out and blot dry the area around the bolts and look for leaks. Can the bolts be tightened sufficiently with the vessel in the water?
Question 3. On our vessel the automatic bilge pump is placed just a few inches below the cabin sole [almost at the base of the cabin ladder]. Any idea why Ericson did not place this pump in the deeper forward sumps? At present, the automatic pump only is triggered when the bilge is almost completely full.
Thanks for your thoughts
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason
E 38 Ventura

 

[CSMcKillip]

Try this

1. We were at our boat 2 weeks ago and I was looking at all the plumbing in the rear compartment. There are 4 scuppers to the cockpit 2 in front and two in the rear, they are plumbed with 1.5" hose and the starboard side there was a small crack on the bottom under the water level. This will allow for water to enter the boat from the thru hull, now closed and from any rain or runoff from the cockpit, I unscrewed the cover and plugged the drain for now. I telly didn't think about it bit another Ericson owner 4 slips down from us had almost the same problem on his 35. This is a standard type hose and it will be replaced asap with a more proven hose for something under water.

2. There will be a torque requirement for your bolts, consult or do a search for the right numbers for the bolts. On our other racer I adjusted the nuts in the water, never had a problem.

3. Our bilge pump is located aft no in the bilge, we have a float switch in the forward compartment, we have 4, and when the water gets to 2 inches the pump comes on and drains to 1/2". I am thinking of switching to an online pump/ strainer/ auto switch to drain the compartment. We are now in the process of replacing the floor because of failure in the past.

Expensive lesson learned.

 

[mherrcat]

1" per hour is pretty substantial. Did you pump out the bilge and the water returned? If the bilge was dry and the water became noticeable after your "vigorous" sail it could have been water trapped in the TAFG that heeling caused to enter the sumps. I had this problem and it took a while to get the water out. I would pump out the water using an oil change pump, dry out the sumps and after sailing the water would reappear. Took many cycles of this to get to where no or very little water would reappear. Still get a little water but I think this is accumulating from the stuffing box. I still have to use the pump occasionally to remove a little water.

I also discovered that water was getting in around one of the cockpit locker lids in a heavy rain or when I washed the boat. Installing a rubber gasket helped control that.

BTW I tried the "taste test" too, but then realized that after 20+ years of salt water getting in the bilge any water that got in there was going to taste salty...

 

[treilley]

Kind of a dumb suggestion but make sure it truly is salt water. Some folks dip their fingers in and taste the salt that was already on their skin.

If salt then it is most likely either the stuffing box on the prop shaft or the rudder post.

Don't mess with the keel bolts until you rule out all else. Check double clamps on hoses and the hoses themselves. The water could also be siphoning up thru the bilge pump hose if it does not have a siphon loop.

 

[u079721]

Hmmmmm........adding an inch an hour while moored, with the seacocks closed?

There are only a few places where water can come in. First you close the seacocks under the sink in the head and under the galley sink (at least on my '89). Then you check the stuffing box, and the through hulls for the transducers. You can also check the scuppers all the way aft, but these are above the waterline so that really should not be a concern. Only way to be sure it is not tank water is to either pump the tanks dry, or (and this is a bit extreme) add some food coloring to the tanks. If water is still coming in, then it pretty much has to be the keel-hull joint.

Ours leaked too - pretty badly in fact. You can tighten the bolts with the boat in the water, and even (though I don't recommend it) take the nuts off one by one and caulk under the washers then put the nuts back. But truly, if you've got that kind of a leak the only cure is to haul the boat and rebed the keel. There can be a fairly big separation that will only show with the boat in the slings, so this might not have been caught by the surveyor.

Good luck!

 

[rbaron]

Thanks

Hey everybody.
Thank you for the fast and useful replies. The food coloring idea had not occurred to me. We will also use our oil pumper to totally drain the bilge and thereby get a better fix on the keel bolts. And I was ready to dig down to the thru hulls for the cockpit drains and now will be sure to do so as well as check the hoses. Steve, we also have an 89 so your thoughts were most welcome. Mark, you have stumped me...what is the TAFG. Sounds obscene.
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason
Ventura

 

[u079721]

The TAFG Mark refers to is the Tri Axial Force Grid (or something like that), which was Ericson's name for their pan liner. When you lift the boards and look into the bilge, you are actually looking at the TAFG, not the hull. Those holes between the various compartments are called limber holes, and they allow water to move from place to place, but also to get trapped temporarily. So if you pump out the visible water from a compartment, you can then see water pouring in through a limber hole from another area - which should theoretically stop after a few pumpings. You can also get water trapped in areas that won't reappear until the boat is heeled, so that can be confusing too. On the 38 you can also get water coming in through the lazarette hatch, which is where the rubber gasket idea comes in.

But if you close all the seacocks, pump the bilge dry, empty the water tanks, don't run the engine, and don't have any rain for a couple of days, the bilge OUGHT to stay dry. Once we had our keel rebeded our bilge would stay absolutely dry if there were no rain for a few days - which is as it should be on a plastic boat.

So wait for a dry day or two, park the boat, close the seacocks, empty the water tanks, pump and sponge out the bilge till no more water comes through the limber holes, and then come back the next morning. If you have more water down there, then you got a leaking keel-hull joint.

Which is sort of a pain - but it's not like blisters. Rebeding the keel is actually a maintenance issue, and should probably be done after 20 years anyway.

 

[u079721]

Question 3. On our vessel the automatic bilge pump is placed just a few inches below the cabin sole [almost at the base of the cabin ladder]. Any idea why Ericson did not place this pump in the deeper forward sumps? At present, the automatic pump only is triggered when the bilge is almost completely full.
Thanks for your thoughts
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason
E 38 Ventura

I missed this part. Given that you also have an '89, the pump located by the base of the ladder is supposed to be for the shower sump. That small sump has a rule float switch running a large Parr pump mounted on the bulkhead inside the engine compartment. The actual bilge pump is an identical Parr pump mounted on the bulkhead under the galley sink, running off of a rule float switch in the bilge compartment just aft of the mast. The shower sump is not even connected to the bilge, to keep odors from building up down there.

So if your system is not set up this way, your PO must have been moving things around. Check for the second rule switch and Parr pump I mentioned. If all else fails, take pictures!

 

[mherrcat]

But if you close all the seacocks, pump the bilge dry, empty the water tanks, don't run the engine, and don't have any rain for a couple of days, the bilge OUGHT to stay dry.

Ha ha! Key word "ought."

This is what I did, except for emptying the fresh water tanks. The bilge would stay dry until it rained; that's when I figured out the locker lid ingress. It would also stay dry until I sailed in 15+ kts of wind, then I would find water that had sloshed out of some area where it had been trapped.

Now I think the only new water is coming from the stuffing box, which will accumulate over a longer period of time, and from the locker lid, for which I need to make a better gasket.

You might also check the "pedro hose" that connects the stuffing box to the shaft log. I doubt this is your problem, unless the surveyor missed something really obvious. Before I replaced my shaft coupling/pedro hose/cutless bearing that hose was very deteriorated and leaking; a serious problem. If the stuffing box packing was bad enough to cause that much of a leak you would probably see water that had been slung around the engine compartment by the prop shaft.

I also leave all the bilge access covers open and open the storage compartment and deck plate under the v-berth (your configuration is probably different; this is where my speed and depth transducers are located) to allow air to circulate and help dry out the bilge when I am not at the boat.

 

[u079721]

OK, here's another thought. Go to the forepeak access panel with a flashlight, and check on the condition of the anchor locker drain hose that leads from the bottom of the anchor pan to a brass tube glassed into the bow. If that hose has pulled off, or is leaking, you can get big amounts of water into the bilge very quickly. I would go so far as to fill the locker pan with a garden hose at the dock and look underneath for leaks.

 

[rbaron]

Very helpful ideas

Gentlemen,
I'm very appreciative of your suggestions. We were in fact taking green water on decks and often burying the anchor on this test run. So checking the anchor locker seems wise. Also the mast boot was leaking [now fixed] on that day. That is when we saw the most water in the bilge.
In light of your comments it now seems possible that we might be getting "referred" water from the liner or from other bilge compartments or even a quart or two of backflow from the bilge pump hose. This could account for the fact that after pumping the bilge almost dry, we see water back just aft of the mast [about an inch over the keel bolts in an hour]. This may well be due to movt of water in the liner or back from the other compartments. Note that the bilge area is relatively narrow at the bottom and that a quart or two might well raise the level an inch so as to cover the keel bolts.
Steve, your comments on the pumps were very helpful. I know that we have a pump under the galley sink but it is linked to a "Bilge Pump" switch at the nav station control board. I did not see a rule auto flapper in the bilge behind the mast but I pray there is one [it's the logical spot]. Since the only one I saw was the "shower pump" I assumed this was primary automatic pump. I will look hard for the second flapper. Thanks again.
bob baron
Beyond Reason
E 38 Ventura

 

[Rocinante33]

Bob,

One point to add to Steve's comments about the TAFG (spot on, BTW, as always), is to point out why they put it in there, despite the pain it creates by catching water; It was to stiffen the hull without adding too much weight. It was something of an innovation for Ericson & was used as a selling point for these boats back in the day.

Ericson hulls do not "oil can," in good measure because of the TAFG. Some lesser boats do exhibit that phenomenon.

 

[u079721]

Steve, your comments on the pumps were very helpful. I know that we have a pump under the galley sink but it is linked to a "Bilge Pump" switch at the nav station control board. I did not see a rule auto flapper in the bilge behind the mast but I pray there is one [it's the logical spot]. Since the only one I saw was the "shower pump" I assumed this was primary automatic pump. I will look hard for the second flapper. Thanks again.
bob baron
Beyond Reason
E 38 Ventura

Assuming you get the main pump running with some type of float switch, here is another modification for you to add to your by now growing list.

The original wiring of the bilge pump switch on the 38 was through the main breaker panel. That meant that when you left the boat you turned OFF the bilge pump if you turned the batteries off - which is easy to do. So I recommend that you rewire the bilge pump directly to the main bus and bypass the BOTH-1-2 battery switches. This is only safe to do if there is still a fuse in the circuit, which there will be as part of the Rule bilge pump switch on the panel.

 

[rbaron]

keel bolt leak

Folks,
My slip neighbor just gave me a report that suggests this leak is coming from the keel bolts [no seepage from direction of the engine compartment---water rising about an inch an hour].
I Plan to have our diver make an inspection ASAP and I will soon go aboard and pump and sponge the bilge bone dry and watch and wait.

Suggestions on how to proceed if keel bolts are the problem?

It would be nice if just tightening the bolts solved the problem but I imagine this is just wistful thinking.
I anticipate that the keel needs to be rebedded. Agree?
Some of the bolts are hard to access as they are under the kitchen cabinetry. Any tips?
Are there torque specs on how much to tighten the bolts?
Any idea where to find em? Owners Manual?
Bob Baron
Beyond Reason
E 38-200
Ventura

 

[Chris A.]

pumps

My 34 (and a friend's 34 of the same vintage) has the shower sump with the float switch, and the par diaphragm bilge pump with no float switch. In other words, no automatic bilge pump at all, just one you have to switch on and off manually.

I added a Rule centrifugal pump with an integrated float switch in the bilge space under the galley sink and wired it directly to the house bank- this offers some redundancy as well as unattended pumping for slow leaks, primarily rainwater down the mast.

Good luck tracking down the problem- an inch an hour of seawater unabated by closed through-hulls / inspected transducers and a properly adjusted stuffing box sounds like a haul-out to me. A badly damaged prop strut or rudder tube would also be things to look for, unless you are truly sure the ingress is not coming from aft sections.

 

[mark reed]

transducer?

I had a mysterious leak several years ago on our '88 38-200. It turned out to be a depth transducer, under the V-berth drawers. There is a liner there, and water was not visible from inside, but it was draining into the bilge between the hull and liner. We were only able to locate this leak after hauling.

 

[rbaron]

thanks

Mark,
Thanks for the reply. That sounds sneaky. It turns out that our leak was from the keel bolts. We are rebedding the keel now.
Bob b
E38-200 Beyond Reason
Ventura