Shoal or not?

[Dferr]

I'm in the process of possibly purchasing a 1982 E-38. It was formerly listed as a deep draft, so I wasn't interested, as I need a shoal draft where I sail. The listing was recently updated as a shoal draft. Is there any way of confirming this while the boat is still in the water, by perhaps checking the keel bolt configuration before having it hauled for the survey? The broker confirmed with the owner that it is a shoal draft, and that the original deep draft listing was a mistake, but I want to make sure before spending the money to have it hauled out. I do realize the difference in the keel shapes between the deep and shoal draft,but without being able to see it, I cannot tell.

Thanks,
Don

 

[Frank Langer]

If you have divers working in the marina cleaning hulls and replacing zincs, a few dollars might persuade one of them to take a quick look underneath the boat and give you approximate keel measurements, which would tell you pretty quickly.
But maybe some owners here will have other signs to indicate which it is.
Frank.

 

[rwthomas1]

Here is a slightly insane thought:
How about making a large "L" shape with some wood, like 2X3's. Make the long section with a 10ft piece and the short part with 7ft. Put a brace in at the angle to hold perfect 90*. Now mark the long section 5ft from the 90* corner to 5ft up the stock. You have now made a "keel checker" The "L" can be dropped into the water and pushed/lowered to the 5ft mark. The short 7ft section that is now underwater can be rotated under the hull so that it is perpendicular to the centerline of the hull. The 7ft section can now be used as a "feeler" for the keel. If you hit it at 5ft or greater then likely you are looking at a deep draft boat. Yes I am certifiable. RT

 

[Loren Beach]

Rob,
No more certifiable than me!
I would suggest 1.5" sched. 40 PVC with glued joints. Leave the bottom uncapped and let it flood as you lower it. The wood assembly seems likely to float up or sideways...
Ya think?

Loren

 

[Shadowfax]

Call Me Crazy

Ok this is off the wall, but assuming, because you are located in Penna., that this boat is located in the Chesapeake, or a sand or mud bottom, why not just take it out and gently run it aground and measure from there. Running aground is a very simple affair in The Bay.

I said it was off the wall

 

[Emerald]

Well, if the boat is in the Chesapeake area e.g. close to D.C., you could always send out a competitive RFP (request for proposal) to all the beltway bandits to make a DoD compliant keel checker

(guess what I did in a former life....)


.

 

[NateHanson]

Running aground would work if he can convince the current owner, and if the fathometer is calibrated correctly, which is unlikely, IMO. (Usually the way I calibrate the fath is by running gently aground on a soft bottom and setting it to the known draft.)

The PVC idea might work, although PVC is so flexible, that you might have trouble getting within a foot of accuracy.

Here's a simpler way. Take a length of line, shackle a few feet of chain to the line (so it can slide). Then with one person on each rail (or with one end tied to a midships stanchion) drop the line under the bow, and walk down the rail until you're over the keel. Pull the light taut, mark both ends at the waterline (piece of tape, sharpie, tie a knot - whatever), and then pull up the rope, measure the length between waterlines, and you've got two sides of a right triangle: 1/2 of the beam is one leg, 1/2 of your rope length is the hypotenuse (sp?). Simple trig to solve for the missing side of the triangle, and it should be very accurate.

 

[jkm]

I swear winter has obviously been too long for a few of you.

It's understandable for Nate, but the rest of you need some sunshine.

Lay off the sterno

It's 79 today and I'm off for a sail

John

 

[Shadowfax]

OK, I'll get serious. If you don't believe the broker, or owner, write into the agreement of sale that the sale is predicated on the boat having a shoal draft.
This boat will have to be surveyed and that the boat will have to be pulled out of the water to do this. Measuring the draft is simple with the boat out of the water. You will have also written into the agreement of sale that if the boat is found not to be as advertised then the cost of the survey will be borne by the seller. If you want to get real serious you could demand that the survey fee be placed in escrow so if the owner is a liar you don't have to chase him.

My guess is that the boat is shoal draft because any deal would be dead the moment the boat came out of the water if it wasn't and if the broker knew the boat was not shoal draft he/she would lose their license.

John, yes it has been a long winter, it's 60 here in PA at the moment [a heat wave] but we might see some more precipitation in a solid form this weekend. March can be interesting. From watching the news I'd be afraid to go sailing in your 79 degrees, for fear that my house would burn down while I was gone. From over here it seems all of CA is on fire.

 

[rwthomas1]

Rob,
No more certifiable than me!
I would suggest 1.5" sched. 40 PVC with glued joints. Leave the bottom uncapped and let it flood as you lower it. The wood assembly seems likely to float up or sideways...
Ya think?

Loren

Yep, PVC would likely work better now that I think about it.... I'm a carpenter, so I end up being a bit single-minded since I work with wood all day. Its whats all around me! RT

 

[Dferr]

Thanks for all the thoughts and input, but I guess it's best to just put it down on paper that if it's the deep draft, I'm not responsible to pay for the haulout or the survey, because at that point, I wouldn't want the boat. I sure hope it has the shoal, because I do love the boat and am looking forward to owning it!

 

[Rob Hessenius]

Just Lift The Boat

Don, Just pay the money to have the boat lifted to measure. You're paying ? for the boat? Make a deal with the broker on the costs to use the travel lift. If your not getting a survey, this just might be a cheap way out in the long run . You just might be surprised at what you see or might not see. I'm not made of money, but I know when and where I have to spend it. Good luck. Rob Hessenius

 

[Chris Miller]

No cheap ways out... I'd get a survey and have it hauled anyhow-- good chance for a professional to check stuff out. A good survey will save you a bunch of money in the long run. It's different with a $5000-10000 boat- but when you start talking $50k and above, it's always worth a survey. Then you'll know, and you'll be sure about the hull/rig/electrical/mechanical/etc...
If it's been on the market for a while, it may have been recently surveyed- and you might be able to purchase a copy for a discounted price. Worth asking about.
Just my opinion...
Chris

 

[Shadowfax]

If the boat is for sale in Maryland and it has been surveyed and the broker knows about the survey he/she must disclose anything nasty found in the survey. They cannot misrepresent a know problem with the boat. This survey should also tell the draft

I completely agree with Chris. The $600 or $700+ you spend on a survey could save you many $1,000's down the road and help you find out exactly what you are getting into, the least of which will be whether it is a shoal draft or not.

 

[Dferr]

I definitely plan on getting the boat surveyed. I just don’t want to pay for a hall out for nothing. If the boat has a 6’6" draft, I don’t want the boat. So let’s hope its doesn’t.
I have Idea. I’m going to use two pieces of conduit 6’ long to make a 12’ long piece for the beam of the boat. I’ll tie a line to each end 12’ long or so. I’ll put a mark on each line from the conduit up at 5’ and 6’6". My wife and I will stat from the bow, and walk down each side of the boat, lowering the conduit and getting it under the keel. At this point we’ll lift up lightly until it hits, then balance out the marks on each side, and see which ones are at the water line. This should give me some Idea of what keel is on the boat. Anyway, I'm going to give that a try, hope it works!

 

[u079721]

Take a quick swim?

I might be missing something here, but at least for the later Ericson 38s, the deep and shoal draft keels were discernable at a distance just by the shape. The deep draft almost came to a point, with both edges slanting down. While the shoal draft had a vertical aft edge, a trailing forward edge, and a flat surface several feet long. No real need to measure the draft, just determine from the appearance which shape you have.

Go jump in the water with a swim mask and a waterproof flashlight, and have the answer in two seconds. (Of course it will be a COLD two seconds....)

 

[rbonilla]

that's what I would do...jump in and l@@k ..... your answer in a few seconds...you may want to check the prop as well...

I might be missing something here, but at least for the later Ericson 38s, the deep and shoal draft keels were discernable at a distance just by the shape. The deep draft almost came to a point, with both edges slanting down. While the shoal draft had a vertical aft edge, a trailing forward edge, and a flat surface several feet long. No real need to measure the draft, just determine from the appearance which shape you have.

Go jump in the water with a swim mask and a waterproof flashlight, and have the answer in two seconds. (Of course it will be a COLD two seconds....)

 

[Martin King]

Steve nailed it. Jump in with a mask. You'll know in 2 seconds.

 

[John N.W.Webb]

Check the sea-cocks too!

While you have the boat out make sure that you get the sea-cocks checked-- especially if you have any of the old gate valves. There were 2 of these on my boat & they were not checked at the time of the survey & when later I shoved a screw-driver up one of the gate valves to see if it was open or closed the gate broke up & fell out!! By that time it was porous copper & useless! We had sailed about a hundred miles by that time & were lucky that nothing untoward had happened. All my sea-cocks are now ball-valves & they all get checked regularly.