SERIOUS WATER INCURSION PROBLEM – solution needed

[Roger Ware]

My Ericson 38 200 has the following alarming characteristic that I have had to deal with at least once in every one of the 4 seasons I have owned the boat. When I sail my boat in more than 15 knots of breeze, and the boat is heeled at greater than (as a guess) 40 degrees or so, it fills up with water! When I say fills up, I don’t mean a couple of buckets in the bilge, or even 20 buckets in the bilge, I mean water sloshing around the inside of the boat, well above the level of the floor. Yesterday I was pounding in 25 knots for several hours I would estimate several hundred gallons came in, to a level 2 or 3 inches above the floor. As soon as the boat is horizontal, the incursion ceases.

Here’s the other fiendish twist. Every time this happens, the electric bilge pumps, all two of them, refuse to operate. To be precise, they are running, and one of them at least was running noisily and continuously, but not one drop of water gets pumped out. Not one. The only pump that I can get to work is the manual bilge pump, which exits from the same thru-hull as the other pumps.

Having read some Ericson 38 stories on this site and others my first thought was the bathroom thru-hulls, sink drain, toilet intake etc. But at least in most of the subsequent “flooding events” these were all closed.

In my second season it happened again, but by this time the boat was clearly leaking, even when horizontal, but from a obvious source, the hull-keel joint. So I spent a few more months fixing that, and naively assumed that the “heavy weather flooding” problem had been fixed also.

I was also distracted by the condition of the electric bilge pumps, which seemed to work fine except when I really need them, when the boat is flooding, and then they pump absolutely nothing. So I replaced those, even though now I think that they probably were working fine.

Here’s my latest (and only current) theory, supplied by a friend: the bilge pump thru-hull is back-filling (no check valve I think, at least not on all routes into the bilge). Why, I don’t know – and this is a huge amount of water to be flowing through that bilge pump hose (and the thru hull is pretty far back on the port side of the hull) But, would this somehow explain the mysterious breakdown in the electric bilge pumps? If this is happening to me, surely it must have happened to someone else on this list? It really is a nightmare.

Thanks to anyone who has an insight into this.

Roger Ware
Kingston, Ontario
Ericson 38 200 "Starlight II"

 

[jkenan]

Same thing happened to me, and I was able to attibute it to the bilge pump. If the bilge exit is below the waterline, and a reverse siphon is created with no means to break the siphon, the pump becomes ineffective. I don't have proof, but I think it will actually work against you! That whirring motor you hear may be the pump pulling water INTO the boat.

First problem I see (on my boat) is that the bilge exit is below the waterline on a starboard tack, and even though I have a loop in the hose which keeps it above the waterline, it is still able to generate a siphon which will lead to flooding the boat if uncaught.

Solutions, as I see them, are to either put a vented loop in the highest part of the hose to break a siphon should one occur, or, relocate the bilge exit to an area that never gets below the waterline (or if it does, it is only intermittent). The only way I can combat it until I render a proper fix is to close the bilge thru-hull and disconnect the pump. Not a good long-term solution at all.

 

[Frank Langer]

Roger, this may take some collective wisdom and detective work to sort out (otherwise you likely would have figured it out by now). Some initial questions and thoughts that may help to narrow down the problem and potential solution:

1) Do you get any significant amount of water into your boat under normal conditions or is it completely dry when "horizontal"--what I'm wondering is if there is an ongoing problem, that simply becomes much more significant when the boat is heeled/under load.

2) Have you checked for all your hoses to be vented--ie. bilge pump, exhaust, head, etc., so you aren't getting any siphoning? I think siphoning when the boat is heeled over may explain the amount of water coming in, if it's a large enough hose and drawing water while you are sailing.

3) Is there any chance of a leak at the hull/deck joint that remains dry under light sail, but lets in water when the boat is heeled? I think this is not likely the cause due to the amount of water you report.

4) Do you have any fitting along the hull above the waterline (eg. clamshell) that could funnel water into the boat when heeled?

5) Your bilge pump may run, but if the bilge pump intake is located on the "high" side when heeled over, it wouldn't pick up water; also if the intake is plugged with hair or gunk, the pump may run without pumping water. This would not likely be the case if the manual pump uses the same intake, and you report it to be working.

6) When water starts to come in (ie. before it gets too high above the floorboards), can you tell whether it is coming from the stern/engine compartment, head or elsewhere, to narrow it down a bit?

7) I am assuming the water is seawater, and not because your water tank leaks at a certain heel--can you confirm if it is seawater rather than freshwater?

I will be interested in what others think, but off the top of my head, these are things I would suspect, and may start the problem-solving process.

Keep us posted!

Frank.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Water incursion.

Roger, It might well be that your bilge pump(s) are the culprit. The fitting is below the water line on our boat on a starboard tack too but I have an ITT belt driven diaphragm bilge pump that prevents water from returning. Not only that it even keeps water in the pick-up hose captive also preventing the chance of a bilge float switch from cycling on and off. After checking that your issue is with the pump hoses allowing water to return is the problem, consider fitting a pump like mine. They are bulletproof pumps avaliable at most consignment stores at very affordable prices and rebuild kist are readily avaliable. The only thng to look for are cracks at the threader parb holes and stripped cover screw threads. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[rwthomas1]

A simple test would be to clamp off the bilge pump hoses or even install seacocks to close them off completely while sailing. I have an E38 and have never experienced what you have described no matter how hard the boat is sailed. In my boat both discharge hoses are routed up to the highest point in the center of the boat, the floor of the cockpit, before leading to the underside of the transom, offset to starboard. Another possibility is that the cockpit drain hoses are leaking. The inner cockpit drains on my boat lead directly overboard through thruhulls in the transom. If these hoses were compromised then the water may flow in nicely when heeled. I am assuming you close the seacock that drains the outer cockpit drains through the bottom of the hull? If not it is also possible that this drain hose is compromised farther back near where the drains are. This would not leak when just sitting at anchor but would leak nicely when heeled.

The best way to find this would be to strip the boat and take it for a hard sail. Have someone crawl around below until they find it.

RT

 

[Roger Ware]

Reply to Frank Langer

Frank, thanks for all the thoughtful idea. I can address most of them, which by process of elimination ......

1) no water gets in at all when the boat is at rest, horizontal (true only since I fixed the keel hull joint 2 years ago)
2)not sure how many hoses are vented, but as I mentioned, all the head/sink intake valves were closed yesterday, so that cannot be the problem. Siphoning in the bilge hose could definitely be a problem, but it is only below the waterline on starboard tack.
3) there is a chance of a leak in the hull/deck joint, and could that be magnified by the stress of a strong wind on the rig (but wouldn't that affect the high side?) But to get this much water in when I can't see any leak seems a bit unlikely.
4) no hull fittings on the sides of the hull above waterline.
5)the bilge pump is running when the intake is about 12" underwater (and the boat level) ! I am not 100% sure that it is not blocked, but I don't think so
6)I have always been much too busy sailing the boat to have time to go below and spend time on diagnostics, but I can see that this is essential.
7)I sail on Lake Ontario so all the water is fresh, but I am certain that I didnt have this much fresh water in my tanks, in fact very little at all.

Anyhow, testing seems to be the first part of the answer.

Thanks again, Roger

 

[treilley]

I think Rob is onto something. Check those scupper hoses. I was getting water into my 35 from old cracked hoses. They looked fine but there were cracks on the undersides. When at rest I grabbed one and moved it slightly, water came out of the hose.

 

[Loren Beach]

I must have missed it somewhere, but... what kind of pump? Age of the bilge hose?

By the late 80's Ericson was using chamber-type pumps, like the Par diaphragm pumps in our 34.
I replaced one with a centrifugal Rule pump, but found that it could back-siphon. I got rid of it and put in another Par.
The built-in check valving in the diaphragm pumps prevents this.

From the description, I would suspect a major leak where a bilge hose exits the hull. Hose split or broken. Not only does this let the water flow in when heeled, but the pump just recycles the water rather than getting rid of it.
Ya think? Maybe...


LB

ps: also check *each* above-water thruhull fitting, after 20 years the plastic can crack or break. Nowadays you replace them with SS or bronze.

 

[Kevin Johnston]

Siphons

I know the E27 drains the bilge at the stern into the cockpit just adjacent the cockpits drain, thus a sipon could never happen since there is an air gap and break in the exiting water stream. Could the drain line for your bilge be rerouted in a similar fashion?

I gain alot of comfort physically seeing the bilge water pumping out and that the pump shuts itself off when the bilge is clear. If it were pumping out via a thru hull I wouldn't know how much water was being pump out or if the pump would ever turn off until there was water below. Yikes!

 

[u079721]

Roger,

Wow, that sucks. Hmmmmm, so just where is that water coming from.

If the boat stays dry when horizontal, I assume you mean that it stays dry from heavy rain too? That is, if the two hoses at the aft end of the cockpit on your 38 were the problem, I would expect them to let lots of rain water into the bilge, much more than the few quarts that come down the mast. (Rob, there are no seacocks on these drains on the 38-200 since they are above the waterline except when heeled, so Roger can't close them as a test.) If these dont' let in rain water, then these scupper hoses would seem to be ruled out. Still as a test I would direct a strong hose at them and look below while doing it.

Where else? I like the suggestion about the bilge pump hoses allowing water back in, but they didn't on my 38 (which was practically identical in age to yours) so what's different? But I do like that especially because the drains for the bilge pumps are typically below the waterline when heeled. Could there be a crack in the fittings that lets water in only when heeled? Perhaps you could test that by getting someone to direct a hose at the fittings from a dinghy while you look below?

The hull deck joint? Again you could test this with a strong water hose while you look for leaks, but the problem here is that the water may not come out where the leak is. However you might see water in the bilge at least.

The only other suggestions would be the engine stuffing box, and rudder post, and the cockpit drain. In particular I wonder about the rudder post. Could the stuffing box for the rudder post have a leak that let's water in only when heeled? I never did repack mine, but your's might be toast. I can't imagine an easy way to test that other than just opening it up and repacking it.

Last would be the overboard drain for the cockpit locker. As long as the hose (that runs from the anchor locker pan drain to the tube that goes through the hull below the bow) is intact, then rain and deck water would not get to the bilge to alert you to a leak. But if that tube has broken free from the hull, there might be a gap that could let water in when the boat is heeled? If so a strong stream of water from a hose might test this as well.

Good luck!

 

[Roger Ware]

two likely candidates

Steve, thanks for all these great thoughts - I WISH that I had posted this SOS two years ago when my newly installed teak and holly sole actually looked new and was free of water damage. When you say direct a hose at the cockpit drain hose do you mean - at the drain, from above, or at the hose itself from under the lazarette, or from below, at the thru-hull?

Your point about rain rings a chord, because yes, my boat does take in rain water in disproportionately large amounts. In fact, last winter, the boat flooded when it was sitting on its cradle (even though it was largely, but not completely, covered, and the mast was down). Also, I had one cockpit drain hose replaced two years ago, but not the other. The old one is on the starboard side, whereas the bilge drain is on the port side. So, if I can figure out which tack I am leaking on, I may have the answer.

Anyhow, I will try to direct a hose at the cockpit drain today and look for leaks.

Thanks again, Roger

 

[u079721]

Roger,

My thought about the cockpit drains was first to direct a garden hose stream down from above and see if that lets water in. I would actually try cutting the end off a hose and try to stick it in the hole if possible to really fill the tube. The through hulls for those drains might be OK, but there could be a crack in the hose that only lets water in when the tube is hydraulically full, which it would be when heeled way over. A strong stream that fills the hose should do it. Or if you can you might put corks in the discharge of these drains from the outside and just fill them with water and see if anything leaks

But your comment about your boat taking on rain water is illuminating. In that case I would suspect the cockpit drains, the anchor pan drain, and the lazarette lid. I mention the lid because the inside lip on the lid can be a bit low, and until I added some foam tape in the crack I could get gallons of rain water coming in the lazarette through that crack. Of course that wouldn't contribute to what you see during a hard sail unless you are taking lots of water over the rail into the cockpit (which I sort of doubt).

And don't forget the rudder tube. To test that you could put some talc powder around the outside of the tube, go for a sail, and then see whether there are water trails visible in the powder. For that matter you can also use the powder trick around the hoses as well.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Frozen aluminum.

All,

I can't seem to unfreeze a telescoping arm made up of a 1" boxed anodized aluminum tube that slides into another one with a pin
stop to hold it on place when stowed.

I've spoken to the manufacturer who offered that all he does in these
cases is to use WD 40 to loosen them. Alas, I've tried that, even using
Gunk brand penetrating oil too. Currently the assembly has been soaking in a one gallon bath of white vinegar in the hope that any mineral buildup
might get dissolved away. That doesn't seem to be working either, as in two days I've been able to pound them apart only about 1 1/2" with about 3' to go.

Has anyone else faced this dilemma? Anyone have an idea or two?

That bath I spoke of consists of a 5' length of 4" ABS pipe capped on
both ends with a 2" open slit cut the length of the pipe. I mention this on
the chance that someone will suggest some form of soaking to release the two boxed tubes.

Thanks in advance,

Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Glyn Judson]

Frozen Aluminum.

Steve, Sorry for the posting to this ongoing thread, I resent it as a new thread as well. I'm concerned about using muriatic acid as I've had experience with it in a 50/50 mix with water, eating aluminum alive. As a matter of fact, I have a couple of gallons of it full strength in the gargae right now and have used it numerous times on bronze which restores it to like new appearance. Can you ask your friend what percentage of dilution I should try first on the aluminum? Thanks, Glyn

 

[u079721]

Muriatic acid can be found at up to 36% or so concentration, but the stuff you find at a hardward store is probably 25 to 30%. But to wash aluminum I would use a concentration of only 1 to 2% to start with.

 

[Roger Ware]

and meanwhile, back to the flood .....

Both cockpit drain hoses seem very sound and free of leaks. I ran water down them while I looked at them through the stern lazarette, and not a drop of water escaped into the boat. In fact, the whole stern section of the boat seems noticeably dry, there is dust and dirt on the hoses and on the inside of the hull. Surely if rivers of water had been running from these hoses then this would have washed some of this dust and dirt away. There is even a small pool of pink antifreeze that has been sitting there for a while, and would not be pink if it had been overrun by lake water.

Also, the bilge hose seems sound at the aft end. When I pump water with the manual bilge pump and watch the hose, it vibrates a bit but no water leaks out.

So I think the problem lies further forward - and a reverse siphon is my top candidate. I did notice that Ericson did something clever on the bilge pump hose, however. The hose routes from the port side thru-hull across the hull to the manual pump which is mounted fairly high up on the starboard side. From there the hose goes aft, down the centerline of the boat. So, when the thru hull is submerged, the pump end of the hose is high, well above water level. And vice versa, when the pump end is low, the thru hull is high, well clear of the water. But I guess that if a siphon started on starboard tack, it would keep going as long as the boat stayed on starboard tack.

Anyhow, the obvious way forward is to close the bilge thru hull and see how it does. So when I have figured out how to do that, I will report back.

Thanks again, Roger

 

[rwthomas1]

One more idea. How about the holding tank vent? Does your model have the aft/starboard dorade? On my E38 there is a dorade box drain on the side of the hull. Either of these would be submerged when heeled hard and a split hose would leak in nicely, and behind the cabinetry so you wouldn't see it. RT

 

[Martin King]

I used to have a E39 that mimicked your problems. She was
bone dry when upright in the slip but would take on water
when sailed hard. In this case I discovered that the entire
rudder tube was delaminating from where it was attached to
the hull interior. You couldn't tell from casually looking at it either.
Once discovered, it was time for a hasty haul out for some glass
work.

In your case, it sounds like the bilge pump is back siphoning. Only
way to tell for sure is to be below while sailing hard.

Martin

 

[Bob Robertson]

Serious Water Incursion Problem

I had the same problem on our 1988 38-200. It occured when we were heeled after I had run the bilge pump. I put in a check valve in the hose near the pump. This insures that the water only flows out of the boat.

I installed the valve something like ten years ago. The check valve continues to work and I haven't done anything to it in terms of maintenance or cleaning. Our boat is located in fresh water, so that could make a difference.

Best of luck,
Bob

 

[bigtyme805]

Roger
Check your muffler and see if you have a hole in it. Also, check the hose leading to the stern tube. I recently had this problem. My bilge kept going off when I was heeled over and I saw all this water in the engine room. I immediately put the boat in irons and pumped the water out. My bilge in the engine room sits on the starboard side and my sensor is on the port side that is why I had to flatten the boat out. I saw no leaks but is was rough out and the Pacific Ocean was starting to get churned up.

I monitored it for 30 minutes and no more water accumulated so we continued sailing. I thought for sure it was my shaft seal since this all happened while the motor was on and after I killed the engine.

When I got into the harbor the same thing started again so I knew it had something to do with the motor. Sure as shit took everything out of locker and started engine. Shit that fiberglass muffler had a hole in the top of it and was shooting water pretty good. I have since replaced it but have learned about these since this happened.

Run your motor and take everything out of locker and have hatch open so you can see everything.

Roger I remember you saying your bilge would not pump I bet your bilge is setup like mine sensor on one side and bilge on another. Mine would not pump either because I was on the tack as the same side of sensor, I needed to have water even out in bilge so I could pump it out. I also put in a check valve at the same time so the water that could not get pumped stayed in the bilge hose rather than bilge of engine room. This allowed me to make sure my bilge was dry and if I had any leaks they would be more visable.

Also this leak on muffler when heeled over would allow water out of muffler into bilge.

Hope this helps.