Replacing Instruments?

[wheelerwbrian]

My 1988 38-200's orginal Datamarine instruments appear to be reaching the end of their life - every year something else goes wrong. This year, the masthead anemometer has stopped working, the speed paddle stopped a few years ago, and the depth works sometime, despite replacing the transducer a few years ago (generally I pull it, clean it and put it back in, then its good for awhile). There's also an old Loran direction pointer that goes nowwhere, just taking up space on the bulkhead.

So I'm thinking of outfitting new instruments, but I definitely want to avoid the "while I'm at it" slide to big bucks. A few years ago I probably would have gone with Raymarine, since my AP is Raymarine, but with the acquistion by Flir, it seems like their instrument business may be on the downhill slide - the supply is getting iffy, and that will mean of course that support will disappear. Discussion on the SSCA forums points to Furuno.

So what are folks thoughts on a reliable, reasonable instrument set? I'm not interested in being on the bleeding edge here. What should I budget for costs?

And while I have the mast down, should I replace the standing rigging - I don't think its original and I had it inspected about 5 years ago and it was ok, but its certainly not new. Again, I need to reign in the costs here, so I would plan on sending it off, having it fabricated and installing it myself, unless the savings are not appreciable. Vendor recommendations welcome - I'm in the Annapolis area. I seem to remember that there may be a parts issue with Ericsons, regariding the chainplate attachements, however...

Thoughts, discussions, stories most welcome.

 

[Loren Beach]

I do not follow the on-line gossip about Raymarine, but can say that the ST-60 instruments I installed a decade ago are all working fine.
Furuno would definitely be my first choice if changing again. I have one of their radar's and it's high quality goods.

Loren

 

[windjunkee]

We're outfitting a Frers/Beneteau 50 with a new instrument set right now. The shopping has been detailed and exhaustive. We've elected to go with Nexus instruments.
Here is the story part. We have B&G hercules, but it is all 1987 vintage and they don't even make parts for the stuff any more. The cost of replacing just what we have with more B&G, which doesn't include additional displays such as analog wind angle, etc., is $15,000 NOT installed. On the other hand, Nexus, which makes an adequate product, after shopping around and buying from a direct supplier (albeit some of our displays are reconditioned rather than new out of the box, and we're not getting the top of the line, we're getting mid-grade NX2), what we're buying came in under $5,000.00. For that price we're getting 2 NXR Multifunction mast displays, 2 control head bulkhead displays, analog wind, steer pilot and GPS screen. We're getting the interface "brains" (NX2) and wifi/blue tooth connector. We're getting the race module, sonic speed/depth (upgrade over the paddle wheel) race wind transponder (with the 3 foot long carbon neck to put it up over the updraft from the chute), compass and cables. I would have bought 3 of the mast-based displays so the crew gets more information, but I'm not the one writing the checks.
On Voice of Reason, I installed the B&G H-1000 system in 2006 with the control head display, tri-function display and analog wind angle, with wind, depth, speed and compass. Other than the fact that the sea temperature reads almost exactly 100 degrees more than the actual water temperature, I've been EXTREMELY please with the set up. Unfortunately, they don't sell the H-1000 any more.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[tenders]

This doesn't help your immediate problem but I think the instrument market is going to evolve significantly in the next five years as tablets come down, down, down in price. In five years I expect to drop a $200 iPad in a waterproofed bag into the little mount I just built out of starboard and have it hook up to all my instruments via Bluetooth. The only power wires will be to the depth transducer, which could probably be powered by a rechargeable battery anyway, and the tablet if I choose to charge it. Boatspeed, windspeed, and wind direction will be self- or solar-powered, and all the expensive hardware, software, and display associated with a traditional plotter and instruments will be in the iPad.

The existing proprietary TackTick MicroNet, NMEA, SIMRADnet, what-have-you networks are going to die the way they were born: alone, under-resourced, overly complex, and under-adopted.

 

[CaptDan]

In five years I expect to drop a $200 iPad in a waterproofed bag into the little mount

It may not even take that long. And when it finally happens, it'll be to yachting instruments what
the slice is to bread - or should I say - as a nail is to a coffin. Which'll be fine by me.

Capt Dan G> E35II "Kunu"

 

[rwthomas1]

Everyone expects this to happen but the sailboat market is very, very, very small. I don't care for tablet solutions on my sailboat or in the small aircraft I fly. I step on the boat, power up the instruments, take the covers off and I'm ready to go. Shutting down is the same routine. The instruments are mounted, waterproof, etc. I don't need to charge them. I don't need to worry about dropping them overboard, stepping on them, etc. But then again I don't get the tablet/Ipad thing anyway. My hands are quite large. I have trouble typing on a laptop, never mind the ridiculous touch screens on those things. I'll stick to the mounted equipment thanks. Its the same thing in the plane, I tried the Ipad, yes its slick but I'll take the panel mounted Garmin 430 every time.

That said, I'd choose Furuno, Nexus and Raymarine, in that order.

RT

 

[brianb00]

Raymarine Instruments sliding ?

Hi,

You indicated you believe RM instruments are somehow dropping out of the market. Is there some definitive evidence of this ?

THanks,
Brian

 

[tenders]

Right, so for $200 keep the iPad on board and put a charger in the mount. Portable car GPS rigs work this way.

The small size of the sailboat market enhances the reasons for selling cheaper, less complex, less customized hardware, and for doing more in software. Look at what we're doing on this forum - discussing 40-year-old boats, some of which only a few were even made, in a way much better than any other way that previously existed, using standard software and a tiny amount of Ericson customization by essentially one part-time guy. The old way was for one motivated person to spend a ton of time gathering and disseminating info in a mailed newsletter that went out maybe twice a year to a few dozen people. Same idea. It's true, some people did like to hold the newsletter in their hands. Up to a point, they're kind of comparable. We're past that point.

Some manufacturer, maybe one of today or maybe somebody in another industry, will notice that they can knock off 3/4 of the price of today's yachting electronics but incur 1/10 of the R&D and manufacturing cost, and still make a wicked margin.

 

[toddster]

I know I've said it before on similar threads. But these instruments are nothing but simple A/D chips and simple transducers. The cost of the components is about $30 - $40. Kids today are building these things, like we used to build napkin holders in jr. high shop. Would you pay $600 for a napkin holder?

There is already some open-source code published for a few sailing instruments. How will RM and the rest top stuff that you can snap together for a few bucks and download the software for free?

 

[brianb00]

RM instruments

I know I've said it before on similar threads. But these instruments are nothing but simple A/D chips and simple transducers. The cost of the components is about $30 - $40. Kids today are building these things, like we used to build napkin holders in jr. high shop. Would you pay $600 for a napkin holder?

There is already some open-source code published for a few sailing instruments. How will RM and the rest top stuff that you can snap together for a few bucks and download the software for free?

You are correct about the high volume electronic components, those costs are very low. Elements of cost of manuf. not mentioned:

Truly water proof , corrosion resistant. and temperature compliant product design. Ex: check out the cost of sealed connectors, more expense than the electronics.

R and D in software spread across a small number of units sold.

Regards,
Brian

 

[Bob Brigham]

The idea of using an IPad for wind etc is very promising...what can we do NOW with the IPad on a mount?

 

[lbertran]

Furuno and Raymarine

I installed a set of Furuno instruments last year when my Datamarine instruments started to stumble. They were a relatively easy install except for running the transducer cables, which would be a chore no matter what brand you buy, except for Tack Tick. I find your comments about Raymarine a little confusing since they seem to be coming out with nice gear since their take over by Flir. Their I70 line of instruments seems very nice indeed. I just installed a Raymarine below deck autopilot with the new P70 control head and am very pleased with it so far. The P70 control head is significantly more energy efficient than their previous control head, has fantastic visibility in sunlight and is very easy to use. The other nice thing is that Raymarine is now using Seatalk NG rather than the troublesome Seatalk they had been using. Seatalk NG seems totally compatible with NMEA 2000. I had no trouble networking my Furuno instruments with the Raymarine AP, it was plug and play. My only problem was that I installed the course computer too close to the motor and the ferrous metal was throwing off the gyro in the course computer. I worked this out with Raymarine tech support, moved the course computer, and all is good. Good luck with your research.

 

[brianb00]

Agreed:

To add to your experience, I just put 5100 ocean miles on a trip in the eastern Pacific. I had an RM X5 AP control head on deck, fully exposed to cockpit filling waves, sun, drenching squalls, and the requisite gale at 40N approaching SF. I was pleased to experience no instrument failure over the course of 32 days at sea. 13 years ago, on a similar trip and with RM instruments, the seals on two of three displays failed. It appears to me that RM has improved their design.

Brian
s/v RedSky

I installed a set of Furuno instruments last year when my Datamarine instruments started to stumble. They were a relatively easy install except for running the transducer cables, which would be a chore no matter what brand you buy, except for Tack Tick. I find your comments about Raymarine a little confusing since they seem to be coming out with nice gear since their take over by Flir. Their I70 line of instruments seems very nice indeed. I just installed a Raymarine below deck autopilot with the new P70 control head and am very pleased with it so far. The P70 control head is significantly more energy efficient than their previous control head, has fantastic visibility in sunlight and is very easy to use. The other nice thing is that Raymarine is now using Seatalk NG rather than the troublesome Seatalk they had been using. Seatalk NG seems totally compatible with NMEA 2000. I had no trouble networking my Furuno instruments with the Raymarine AP, it was plug and play. My only problem was that I installed the course computer too close to the motor and the ferrous metal was throwing off the gyro in the course computer. I worked this out with Raymarine tech support, moved the course computer, and all is good. Good luck with your research.

 

[rwthomas1]

Never seen an Ipad for $200. I can dump a bucket of seawater on my Furuno and it won't know the difference. Maybe that would work with the Ipad but I'm not betting my boat and family on it. We have 3 boats at the club with TackTick. The micronet comes and goes on all of them. I've yet to see any transducer from a source other than Airmar, the price of those is likely going to stay the same. No idea who makes the wind transducer but maybe 1 or 2 sources worldwide? Again, not a likely drop in price. So if the data collection end of things is not changing, then we need something in the middle to talk to the Ipad, etc. correct? Then the cost of the Ipad? I'm still waiting for the savings..... I don't really like the idea of consumer grade electronics and trusting it to work when it gets snotty. The Furuno will, something made for texting my "BFF", maybe but I ain't testing it.

RT

 

[tenders]

Within five years the cost of today's iPad power will be way under $200. It will not be difficult to construct a very rugged case for one; I'm sure the R&D impetus will not come from the sailing industry but from the delivery, transportation, construction, fishing, manufacturing, power generation, photography, or outdoor dining industries. Obviously the software will be different, but are those users' hardware needs so different than ours? Certainly not from the calculation, location, and display standpoints.

Today an iPad is a very credible GPS and chart plotter substitute with iNavX.

 

[Loren Beach]

A related iPad thread

Interesting thread from a big sailing forum in the UK.
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328692

 

[lnill]

replacing instruments

I posted on this topic a while back and am in the same position on my e38-200. I am already "committed" to buying Raymarine, but I would be interested to hear what you think is going on with them. I used to run a touch screen business that supplied them and have some experience with their operations (this during the bankruptcy era). I just bought the E7d plotter and will add a S60+ tridata and wind instrument over the winter (need to step the mast anyway). That will add up to about $3500 (instruments) plus install (hoping to do most of the install on my own). I am not sure what your target is on cost is but this seemed reasonable to me in todays market. I think the comments on ipad are legitimate. The base technology will become very low cost but in a marine environment we need a high level of reliabity. I want my instruments at the helm and I want them to work. As with all of sailing the key is what level of risk are you comfortable with.

 

[wheelerwbrian]

Just internet discussion which included conjecture that Flir was interested in the radar part of the business and doesn't see much of an upside to the instrument side. My apoligies, since its not really clear what's going on, I should not have repeated it without some additional validation.

Not sure if its significant but supplies appear to be running out, at least of the ST-60 items - West Marine says "Limited Availability: Availability is limited to stock on hand in our distribution centers. First come, first served."

It may be that they're phasing these out as legacy instruments; the i70 series seem to be the replacement but they have limited availability and the package solution has two control heads and two transducers, at least with Defender. Price is $1940.

Annoyingly, I have four holes to fill in the bulkhead...

Hi,

You indicated you believe RM instruments are somehow dropping out of the market. Is there some definitive evidence of this ?

THanks,
Brian

 

[Loren Beach]

Just internet discussion, conjecture that Flir was interested in the radar part of the business and doesn't see much of an upside to the instrument side. Not sure if its significant but supplies appear to be running out, at least of the ST-60 items - West Marine says "Limited Availability: Availability is limited to stock on hand in our distribution centers. First come, first served."

One factor to keep in mind is that the model ST-60 stuff is a decade old now. It's been replaced completely in their model lineup.

They may, OTOH, keep the parts around longer for the somewhat newer model ST-60+ products, though.

LB

 

[brianb00]

At a recent boat show, and at a particular WM store, I met with the RM guy's. They have this big trailer full of product they haul around. They sure were motivated about their new product line that Loren mentions. I was bugging them about why drop black and white high contrast LCD and they were busy defending their color displays and how much they were looking forward to selling the product. Alas, it was marketing however. That said, they sounded pretty committed.

My impression is FLIR saw an opportunity to enter a new product line at low investment and took the plunge.

If you need any stock tips, just ask.

Brian