old boat, crazy ideas

[Ike]

Greetings fellow vikings! I've been lurking here for awhile but have had yet to post. My kudos to all of you for an maintaining an invaluable resource about these great boats.

I am the proud new owner of Skol, an E-27 of the 1974 vintage. She's berthed in Berkeley, CA, and right now out on the hard for as much refit as I can possibly scrape together to make her safe and get back on the water. The remainder of this year I hope to learn the boat through beercan racing at BYC and weekend sailing with my small family of 3. A bit longer term with confidence in the boat through a more thorough refit and a sailing education on SF Bay, my hopes are to consider racing Skol in OYRA and SSS events as her seaworthy lines will be more favorable there than mixing it up with the sport boats around the cans.

After a month or two of sailing her on SF Bay, it was clear that working a 135% and 150% genoa on a near shoal draft fin keel is tricky business. After much reading here and other forums, it seems like the big headsails on masthead sail plan were designed to keep the stern out of the drink with the CE running forward. My first trip through Raccoon strait in ~15kts true wind with full sails was eye opening. As fun as that was, and as great as it is to run wing and wing with the big genny, I began to wonder about alternatives and how to make the boat more competitive since new sails will be in order.

Months later, after many beers and fondling of ripped out electrical wire and failed efforts to budge those dastardly inline ball valves on the factory thruhulls, I got to thinking (dangerous, I know): what if I ditched these big gennys and instead hanked on a more manageable 100% blade headsail, then retrofit a short bowsprit (<15% J as I understand to not interfere with the PHRF) to hang a furling code zero for upwind in light to moderate conditions, and to serve as a heavy air spinnaker downwind? Has anyone tried this arrangement?
thanks for any banter, insight, or derision as it may be

Skol!
-Ike

 

[PDX]

Here are some of my thoughts.


What kind of shape are the current sails in? I think its risky to make projections on the boat's performance potential if its currently sailing with over-the-hill sails. With brand new sails, I suspect its performance will improve markedly.

With a 100% jib you will have 332 square feet of sail area on a 7500 lb boat. That might be too much performance sacrifice. The boat was apparently designed with large genoas in mind. If you look at Bruce King's original sail plan, genoas are drawn in all the way up to 170 or so. http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=680 If the idea is to use the blade only going hard up wind, you still have outside sail tracks that may give problems sheeting in properly. With outside sheeting you might be better off with a larger genoa with a high cut. That way you can bring the sheet all the way back to the narrower, aft, section of the boat. Would a code 0 compensate for the loss of sail area? If you do most of your sailing on a reach in light air.

There was poster on this board (don't know if he still posts) named Nigel Barron who successfully souped up an E-27. If you do a search of his old posts you might learn what worked and what didn't.


I don't know much about code 0s. They are a reaching sail. Buoy courses tend to be upwind-downwind. On the type of racing you're talking about they might be fine but I don't think they can substitute for a genoa. Whether you need a sprit to fly one, I can't speak to.

 

[Loren Beach]

Genoa Sizing Thoughts

There is some great discussion about how much overlap is "enough" in this recent thread.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...tting-the-Overlap-Juuuust-Right&referrerid=28

I did end up ordering a 95% with vetical battens. Delivery will be in April.

While our budget will not support adding an A-Sail for a while, I do like the idea of having one for all the reaching situations. That really shortens up the sail inventory.
We like the existing Spinnaker, but it does take some addional set-up work for a cruising couple... Wonderful sail when up, though. Especially on a reach!



Best,
Loren

 

[Mark F]

Welcome Ike.

For summer conditions in the SF Bay a smaller headsail is a must. If you are serious about performance, like PDX wrote you will probably need to add an inner jib fairlead track. I have a 110% with inner tracks on my e27 and it works well for the summer winds here is Santa Cruz CA.

A furling asymmetrical is a wonderful thing. I added a retractable sprit with a furling asymmetrical. There are off the shelf units for both http://www.bamarusa.com/bamar-rollgen.htm http://www.pyacht.com/selden-bowsprit-kits.htm

What I did was piece together a sprit out of a used 3" spinnaker pole, had a collar made to hold the sprit and used an old continuous line furler I bought on ebay for $30. If you are ever down in Santa Cruz I can show you what I have. It is easy to use and I fly the spinnaker singlehanding often.

Check out the Lotus Flower album in the "Albums" section of the "Community" like above for some photos.

 

[tenders]

I did end up ordering a 95% with vertical battens. Delivery will be in April.

I think you're going to like those battens. My 150% gennie was built with those in 1997 by Dave Bierig in Erie, PA and they're the bee's knees. Among other benefits, they do a good job of keeping some semblance of sail shape as the sail is furled.

 

[Mark F]

Hi Tenders,

Do you have any photos of your jib with the vertical battens? I've never seen that setup.

 

[AleksT]

The code 0 will not get you the upwind performance that you seem to be expecting. As PDX said they are more set up for reaching. This also means that you will be reaching more when you are trying to go downwind. It will be easier to set up but you will be gybing a lot more.
What about having a blade 100-110%, a larger jib 125-135% for lighter air work. and then a symetrical spin.
I am not a sailmaker and my size recomendations are rough, you should consult a good sailmaker.

The symetrical spin will be harder fly and will cost a little more for the set up. (track on the mast, topping lift, etc.) but it will let you go deeper downwind when you are sailing towards a downwind mark.

 

[tenders]

Hi Tenders,

Do you have any photos of your jib with the vertical battens? I've never seen that setup.

I'm so sorry but I do not have pictures of this! But to describe: the sail has five, thin, five-foot battens installed along the luff, oriented parallel to the headstay and starting about 2 feet aft of the head of the sail and every 2 feet thereafter. As the sail furls, the battens roll around the headstay. The battens allow a tiny amount of roach on the genoa.

I think it's a great design and am surprised more haven't implemented it.

 

[e38 owner]

Seattle boat e27 small headsail.

Seth may have more info and I think there are many threads but if my memory is correct there is a e27 in the Seattle area that tends to win and has altered the sail plan for a small headsail. I think if you search for Seth and the E27 the thread may come up. Once of the photos that pop up may be of the boat

 

[PDX]

I think you're talking about Nigel Barron's boat. He put on a larger mainsail and downsized the headsail if memory serves. Don't remember exactly how he did it, but generally the only way you can do that is with a taller mast.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Nigel Barron's E-27 Green Card

Here's a old discussion where I asked Nigel Barron bunch of questions about his e-27 boat "Green Card" back in 06 after he won the Toliva Shoal race in Puget Sound.

Read Nigel's reply to me in thread #6. He talks a bit about the sails and modifications.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?2889-Ericson-27-wins-at-Toliva-Shoal-race!&

 

[Ike]

Thanks for all of the excellent replies.

Mark, your bowsprit looks fantastic. Installation looks real solid and just as fit and finished as those $2k kits. Taking your advice on the smaller headsail. Most of my sailing was late last year out of the "windy season", and the genoas were just a tad hard to handle and seemed like I was always flying too much canvas. I haven't had her out in the slots yet when it's really blowing. If I were to do it I suppose I'd just drop the main entirely hope for the best on the 135!

Lots to take in here, especially PDX's info on the tracks and maybe a high clewed jib. My 135% and 150% are classic decksweepers and, without being on a furler, it's hard to shorten sail when shorthanded and the breeze is up. Mainly I was looking to split up all that area to make it easier to manage, with the thought that on the blade I'd be much closer and faster on windward legs (way less heel), and that when backing off to a reach I could easily fly the code-zero off a furler to make up for the loss of sail area from the genoa. So much to take in! For now I'm looking forward to reading more about Nigel's boat.

Skol!
-Ike

 

[windjunkee]

After much thought and study, I decided to change the headsail plan on VOR. We had been sailing with a full Kevlar 155 as our primary driving sail under most conditions common to Southern California. We could carry that comfortably to about 15 knots true (easing in the gusts as always) before we had to trade down. When contemplating a new headsail, and since most of the competitive sailing I've been doing has been shorthanded, I added a Harken roller furler. I put a North 3DL #2 on it since I wouldn't lose as much shape with the #2 as with a #1 when cut for the furler. Much of my racing is not windward/leeward, so I did not need to specialize my sails for maximum upwind performance. To make up for loss of size, I added a Code Zero. This really doesn't help with upwind performance at all, but it allows me to maximize my reaching speed in light air before I get off the wind enough to fly my full symmetrical. I would say my Code Zero gets put up at around 60 degrees apparent and I carry it to about 90. The symmetrical can handle tight reaching, but shorthanded, its a chore best avoided to keep the pole that close to the headstay.

I rig the tack line off a block I have affixed immediately forward of the headstay. That way I don't have to jury rig a bow sprit and don't take a ratings hit. In fact, I got a rating boost by having my max genoa size 140 rather than 155.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32-2 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[Ike]

Windjunkee, that sounds like a really nice setup. Really appreciate everyone's input. it's pretty clear to me that, right now, the biggest upgrades bang for buck to be had for some length of time are all to be made to the skipper


Thanks to many of Seth's and other's excellent replies here on the forum, I've learned that I have yet to even remotely trim the genoa well. On my last sail before going on the hard I'd just managed to free the cars on the jib track so as usual I'm getting way ahead of myself. for this year - the revised, slightly more informed ideas are:

- crew more on S.V. OPB
- repair or replace these old signet instruments. pretty certain my face lies.
- make sure rig is in tune, have some club racers learn me on masthead stay tensions for the bay
- upgrade traveler (that snap track deal is a miserable excuse)
- investigate retrofitting slab reefing to my existing main
- pole out for running DDW. I think my pole is J length. may not be the best on the 135?
- experiment with a "twinger" to save on throwing money at new cars & track
- rig a barberhauler on the "in" side to see if I can't tame the 135 with the main reefed


Skol!
-Ike

 

[steven]

on my former boat (Hunter 27) had a nylon 170 that sheeted almost at the stern and was set flying - a genny not an asymmetrical and I can could close reach with it. Raising the main was optional. More than around 110deg apparent needed to pole it. DDW in really really light air I once poled the asymmetrical to one side and the big genny to the other. Beautiful cloud of colored sails. Just don't get caught with this up in a building wind.

Have thought about getting similar for my e35 and putting it on a furler.

--Steve

 

[Matey]

vertical battens



you can see the pockets for my battens and get the idea .. I'll try and get a better shot next week when I'm out

Regards, Greg