Oil in Bilge//Engine Damage???

kdomshawn

Junior Member
Help, any advice on following much appreciated. I had a mechanic spend a significant amount of time (and money, $4,500) servicing my diesel engine about 1 1/2 months ago to get it ready for the season and wasn't expecting to have any problems with it:mad:

Today went to check on my boat, 28'+ with Universal 5411, and found that what appeared to be all of the oil had leaked from the engine into the bilge :confused:.

Was out in pretty bad weather yesterday and had to run the engine for about 45 minutes to get back to port. I remember checking the engine temperature gauge close to port and it didn't go about 150 degrees and it seemed to run fine all the way in. I didn't hear any knocking or see any smoke. So, my questions are

1) would I have known if the engine had been damaged (ie if it seized) and;

2) What could be the source of the oil leak?

Thanks
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
That does not sound like any reason to panic (not yet, anyway).

With that much leakage, if you clean the engine, refill the oil, and start it, you should see where it is coming from. If the leak is impossible to see, it would be worth talking to the mechanic to see what he disturbed while he was working on the engine, as there may be a seal that got damaged in the process.

Fixing it may be a half hour job, or it may involve hauling the engine. Good luck.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

chuckshipp

Junior Member
Oil in Bilge

Hay buddy;
got it in my head to put a lot of white vinigar in my raw water cooling system, :confused: Bad move, ate up the seal behind the water pump, water, got into the engine, forced the oil out of the top, into the bilge(mess) Was towed in, filled up with oil ran engine, about 5 times in a row, till the oil was no longer milky. I have the same engine.
Chuck
 

chuckshipp

Junior Member
One more once

There is a plug 19MM on the side of this engine, can get to it on the port side, this is a big help when changing the oil. one of those little food bowls works great to catch this oil.
Chuck
 

hodo

Member III
I guess I would have to ask what the mechcanic did for 4500 bucks. Did you run the engine since it was serviced, before you noticed the oil? when you check the level, how low is it? If you can 't see an apparent leak, you might refill it and run it to see... I think the first thing I would do is call the mechanic that serviced it and be there when he checks it. Could be as simple as the filter is loose, or , maybe the gasket from the old filter stuck to the block and he didn't notice. Is it new oil or old oil in the sump? Is the dipstick seated? Has your engine got the hose attached to the pan? I have seen the hoses fall down into the sump and lead, as there is usually a vent in the plug. Good luck, Keep us posted. Harold & Jessie S/V Mischief :devil: Maker
 

kdomshawn

Junior Member
Update

Well, here's the update.

After dragging the mechanic out to the boat, we cleaned the oil from under the engine and in the bilge. We then filled the engine with oil and the transmission with fluid which both leaked out.

We started the engine and it did not take long to leak. Long and short of it is, the mechanic told me that the oil pan has rusted and has leaks (which I observed) and the transmission needs to be rebuilt. He also said I need a new sea water pump since it is leaking and is what has likely caused the oil pan to corrode and he recommended a dripless stuffing box.

When he roughly priced it out he said it would be around $4,000 ($1,000-$1,500 to rebuild the transmission, $300 for a new oil pan, $200 for new pump and the rest man hours).

Thoughts, recommendations? Fixing the transmission and lifting the engine are beyond my experience level so I think I'm stuck with hiring the mechanic. :mad:

Am considering suing the previous owner and broker but they sold the boat "as is" anyone have a similar legal issues?

KDOMSHAWN
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
That sucks.

Before putting that kind of money into an engine that sounds like a mess, I would look at the options.

Can you find a good used engine, from a trustworthy source?

How much would a new engine cost?

Could you swap out an engine yourself? I have done it, there are pictures of my rig somewhere on this site, and it was not all that hard, although you may want to pay someone to align it and ensure it is properly hooked up. It would be a much easier job to take on yourself than rebuilding the transmission (at least I think so). If there is that much corrosion on the engine, the mounts may need attention too, I would certainly inspect them.

Can you get an assessment of the general state of the engine? Will you put in $4000, only to have an endless run of further problems? Or is the block in good shape?

Sorry to hear your boat is giving you so many problems at the outset. Previous owners guilty of serious neglect, and brokers for whom truth is a quaint notion for children's stories, are sadly common; but the difficulties can usually be overcome with some effort and bloody mindedness.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4839&highlight=engine+replacement

This is a prior thread that discusses the question of rebuilding vs replacing. Absent having a really cooperative mechanic who will try hard to make good on his workmanship, and absent you having a friend in the lawyering business that will assist you in a civil claim, you may have to consider starting over... :mad:

I would note that for around $6K, you can source a brand new diesel, including new trans and panel, for your size boat. Installing this entourage is not too difficult for a thoughtful and patient owner, IMHO.

I would have to question a mechanic (either his smarts or his ethics) that would invest a lot of his time and a lot of your money and then not tell you about a pan problem (or any other problem with the drive train).

I sure wish you luck.

Loren

ps: to go from no leaks in either the engine or trans to fatal leaks in both, ATER the "mechanic" worked on it just seems suspicious to me.
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
First of all, sounds like a bummer. Sorry your engine is giving you so much trouble. Boat problems are never fun - even worse during summer.

I don't think there's much recourse against the owner. I'd suspect that just as in a house sale, the sellers obligations end at closing. It's up to you to hire a surveyor and/or professionals to investigate the boats assets and problems prior to sale. That's my understanding, although I'm no expert on this stuff.

I'd further agree with the others above, that a good first step would be to ask what good his $4500 of prior work is doing you if he didn't inform you of the other major and obvious failures which existed with the engine at that time. Then find a new mechanic. Under no circumstances would I hire that mechanic for anything further.

It sounds like this engine is falling apart piece by piece. I would seriously consider cutting my losses at that point, and putting in a new or rebuilt engine.

Good luck, Nate
 

gareth harris

Sustaining Member
I have just reread your post, and if you have spent $4000 already on the engine, you will feel a strong temptation to stay with it. I urge caution thinking that way. This is my engine saga, I am not proud to reflect on it, but it taught me a lot:

I bought my boat with an Atomic 4 nearly ten years ago. I was clueless back then, the surveyor said the engine was in good shape, I now realise he was more familiar with much more expensive boats. I started having problems fairly soon, and my first thought was to replace it with a new diesel, rather than deal with the inevitably long process of all the bugs that would come out. Most of the advice I got (this web site did not exist then) was that the thousands the new engine would cost, even doing much of the work myself, would be a waste on a boat with good light air capabilities; and the old engine would probably be fine with some work. Against my own instinct, I kept the old one.

Despite my efforts, my lack of engine knowledge, combined with years of past neglect, made that a bad decision. Over the next couple of years, I got very good at sailing in and out of the slip with no engine - I can credit the engine with getting me some recognition from the old salts at the marina.

After over a year, I thought again about just buying a new engine, but the lack of any available replacement that would fit without carpentry made me plow about $2000 into the A4. It still gave problems, I still worked endlessly, gaining expertise slowly, and finally seemed to have put it right nearly five years after starting. The work had included replacing the water pump, adding a raw water strainer, replacing the thermostat, acid flushing the engine, replacing all the hosing, replacing the fuel filter and adding a second filter, replacing the fuel pump, cleaning the carburetor, replacing the ignition panel, instuments, and all the wiring (after a short circuit started a nasty electrical fire at the engine, thankfully I shut it off before fuel got involved), replacing the control cables, replacing the transmission gasket, replacing the stuffing box and cutless bearing, cleaning the distributor and replacing the cap and spark plugs, retiming the ignition, adjusting the oil pressure and replacing the sending unit, new mounts, and probably more that I can not immediately think of.

Fate did not want it to work, and on my first day of sailing with an engine sounding sweet, and all the gauges reading right, it suddenly cut out without warning. It would not restart, and I had to return to port with a canoe paddle, along with a girl on our first date. I tried to troubleshoot, but all I could find was that the compression, which had hitherto been good, had dropped somewhat on all four cylinders. I gave up, and called in a mechanic who assured me that it must be a simple fix if it was running smoothly before it died; but he achieved nothing other than costing me money. I finally hauled it, and sent it to Don Moyer, who found that the block was cracked, and replaced the engine with a rebuilt one for $5000 (I was locked into an agreement by then).

So... after around $8000, and several hundred of my man hours, I had a working old engine with all new parts; but I never got to use it, as it got flooded in Hurricane Ivan, and I had to haul it again. The insurance covering the boat was no higher with the rebuilt engine, as it would have been for a new one, so the story has an even more expensive end: I am now buying a new diesel; had I done so ten years ago, I would be several thousand dollars better off, and would have had a lot more days of sailing rather than head down in the bilge over the last ten years.



Every case is different, as your case may be to mine (without seeing the engine, your Ericson breathren can only offer general advice), but what you have described sounds horribly familiar. Consider all your options carefully, as sometimes the cheap fix works, sometimes it turns out to be an illusion. Over ten years I have learned that a lot of jobs that seem over your head when you first consider them, are doable with patience, plus they make you a far more capable mariner at the end.

I would sum it all up by saying that a well looked after engine can run on and on for years, but an engine neglected by a proponent of throwaway culture is best thrown away.

I doubt you have any legal case to stand on. I have taken a boat yard to small claims court, and won full claim plus costs, but my case was pretty black and white. In your case, 'as is' usually means they can have lied through their teeth and get away with it.

If your mechanic has charged you $4000 to deliver you a piece of #$%@ of an engine, and wants another $4000 now, you need to get the local chapter of the Ericson owners association to don horned helmets, face paint, and loin cloths, pick up some heavy tools or farm implements, and pay him a personal visit.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 
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gareth harris

Sustaining Member
I will answer your private questions here, so it is in the thread for anyone who suffers the same problems in future. An engine mechanic is a better bet for your purpose now than a general boat surveyor. Finding a good mechanic takes time when you are new to an area, but as you ask around the local boating community, you will hear the same name or names repeated. A good mechanic will be busy, and it will usually be a while before he can do major work, although a quick inspection he might fit in fairly soon if you explain the circumstances. What you describe may be a difficult call to make even for a good mechanic, mind.

For the rest of this season, you may still be able to sail, if you just need the engine for a quick run in and out of your slip. You will end up with a nasty mess, and have to empty the bilge into oil disposal rather than the bay. And you will have to be wary of being becalmed too far from home.

Feel free to ask more questions as they arise.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972
 
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Annapolis E-27

Member III
Chris Oliver, Sr. is an engine surveyor over on Kent Island. I have taken his diesel engine classes and have been impressed. I don't have his number but ask around. This is from a webpage about him.

CHRIS OLIVER, SR., MECHANICAL ASSOCIATE
Chris is well know for his diesel expertise, and owned Chesapeake Marine Engines, Inc. He conducts several seminars each year for marine diesel mechanics, and has instructed marine engine courses at Anne Arundel Community College.

Equally well known is his hydroplane racing career. Winner of five APBA National High Point titles, he is a competitive leader. Having captured several world records, he screams around the course in his 2.5-Litre modified class boat “EVERY PENNY”. He often is asked to drive for other owners. His reputation for success is hard to match.

Chris’s experience in boat building and repair as well as mechanical knowledge provides competent observations. He is a qualified Yanmar, Universal, Perkins, Westerbeke, Farymann, and Lehman mechanic. All GM, Chrysler, Mercruiser and Crusader, (Marine Power) gasoline engines are included in his inspections. Westerbeke, Kohler, Northern Lights, Panda and Onan generators may also be certified.
 

jreddington

Member III
I just spent a little less than that on my 5411. But this included pulling the engine, new exhaust manifold, new injection elbow, new engine mounts, new starter, new raw and seawater pumps, new coupling and propeller shaft, and dripless packing, plus a few other odds and ends.

Engine was running well before, but most of the stuff listed above was looking pretty iffy. It is a 20+ old engine after all. I'd be a bit ticked if I had the engine out and they never picked up on a rusted oil pan. In my project, the new manifold was added as a result of inspection once it was out. Only other "adder" I can think of was a leak where the gear shift shaft goes into the casing. Pretty small $s compared to everything else.

I still had a start problem but later found that it was in the wiring to the starter (See Owners & Projects for the wiring modifications). So I may have thrown away a few bucks replacing a good starter but then again, the old one was a 20+ year old starter.

As to running without oil, I made a bonehead move of meaning to buy and put on an oil filter over the winter lay-up. Then got rushed the following spring and ended up starting the engine after spring splash and gushing oil all over the compartment. Only ran this way for 10-15 seconds so no harm done (as far as I can tell to the engine although it was hours cleaning up the mess)
 

kdomshawn

Junior Member
Thanks

All, thank you for your thoughtful advice, this website is excellent and a big help. Unfortunately, I need to leave on a business trip for a little while but when I get back I'll provide and update and let you all know what my fabulous "ex"-mechanic did for $4,500. Thanks again for your input. :egrin:
 

jmilanette

Junior Member
Mechanics in Annapolis area

I have a similar problem with my 5411. The manifold appears to be cracked and it's spraying water all over the engine compartment. Was able to limp home - actually with no apparent impact on performance - but had a mess to clean out of the bilges. Can you recommend a mechanic in the area - or at least identify the one who did such a poor job on your 5411? Thanks in advance.
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Do it yourself

These engines are not very hard to work on and with the exception of the tranny rebuild the other stuff is very doable yourself. Provided the engine is worth spending the money on. A couple of 4 x4's over the companionway and a comealong and you should be able to move the engine off its mounts and into a space to pull off the tranny. Send it out for a rebuild. (Info on this site) oil pan is nothing more than a bunch of bolts and a gasket. Raw water pump is a piece of cake too. You dont need to pay these robber baron mechanics. What you will need to do is decide if this motor with its age is worth pouring any more dough into. How is the compression? Are the rings and valves still holding up well? Much smoke when run hard? How much rust? Get a good service manual and you can do 99% of the work on these beasts yourself. Just be patient and take your time with each procedure. Makes you much more self reliant in the long run anyway.
 

kdomshawn

Junior Member
Update...Labor Day Blues

Sorry for the long overdue update. Thanks to everyone who gave advice and helping out but after weighing the costs associated with repowering and the fact the rest of my summer would be blown, I decided, with some good help from Emerald, to give it one last shot and see if I could solve the oil and transmission fluid leak problems myself.

With a friend of mine, we were able to hoist the engine and replace the oilpan (the old one did have a pinhole leak) and, when we examined the transmission, we noticed that the washer had corroded, easy enough fix.

Long story short, we lowered the engine back in and got it all hooked up again.

After not being able to get to the boat for about 1 month, I went back this weekend to try to bleed the fuel line (which we had disconnected).

Following the manual, I lifted the decompression lever and cranked the engine while first opening the bleed valve above the fuel filter and then the secondary bleed valve closer to the engine.

After about cranking the engine 10 times with no luck in getting it to turn over, a decent amount of black smoke started to come out from the exhaust manifold or riser area (which I had never seen before).

So, my questions are these:

a) did I in fact, as I originally was afraid, seize or somehow destroy the engine (although I can move the belt by hand and when I examined the pistons by looking at the contact point beneath the rocker arms when I opened the valve cover I did not see anything that looked damaged)

b) by trying to crank the engine so much did I burn out the starter or something else?

c) or did I just improperly reconnect the exhaust somehow?

d) or am I completely way off base and is something else going on?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 

MarkA

Please Contact Admin.
Gulp.

I don't know what to tell you, except that you obviously didn't seize it (it still turns over).

But I thank you for bringing this to our attention. I will replace my stuffing box immediately, because the sump under the engine fills up in the first 30 minutes of motoring.

No obvious corrosion yet, but yikes!
 
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