M-12 starting mystery

Special K

Special K

Member II
I have an ongoing starting issue that I want to put before all the engine gurus out there. My Universal M12 on our E28 has an intermittent starting problem. Sometimes after waiting 30 to 60 seconds to let the glow plugs to do their magic, one simple push of the starter button brings it roaring to life. Other times, even if the engine has been warmed up, a similar procedure just results in a click at the starter. Here is the perplexing part, in troubleshooting the problem I have found that by turning the flywheel over by hand one time a subsequent push of the starter button causes the engine to start right up.Any ideas? Any solutions?
 
bayhoss

bayhoss

Member III
The only thing that I can add is that I have the same engine on the same boat and have the exact same problem. I have checked and rechecked electrical connections until I'm blue in the face. Hope someone comes up with something.

Best,
Frank
 
Special K

Special K

Member II
From the category of misery and company

Frank,Just to compare notes, where does the ground from your battery attach to the engine?On my boat it is connected at the forward corner of the engine on the starboard side where the engine mount connects to the block. It may just be me, but this doesn't seem like a great place for the ground. I am thinking of having a new longer cable made to bring it to the port side of the block.Thanks for your input and ideas, Peter
 
B

Bob Brigham

Member II
I have the same engine on the same boat...and the same problem. I remember an older thread suggesting a solenoid problem...going to check this on haul out.Another question for you E 28 owners with the M 12...do you feel vastly underpowered? Moving our boat from the Hudson River to Buzzard's Bay next season and worried about strong current and wind...
 
bayhoss

bayhoss

Member III
Hi Peter, My ground is to the engine block on the starboard side. I even removed the cable, ground the metal on the block, sanded the cable connection and firmly reattached it. Still the same issue. Sometimes she will start right away, other times I can hit the button 20 times. You can hear the solinoid making - the starter just failes to turn over the engine. And yes, the boat is way underpowered. I've been in situtations of trying to get into a channel with wind and waves on the nose and could hardly hold 1.5 kts.
Best, Frank
 
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Special K

Special K

Member II
Engine power

I am getting a new prop for the boat and in the meantime we had the old prop re-pitched to 10". It has made an incredible difference. Originally it was 12 x 7, now 12 x 10. More speed and more power. I know that doesn't make sense, but it feels like a whole new engine.
 
R

rwthomas1

Sustaining Partner
Every time I've heard of a starter doing this its one of two reasons. The solenoid on the starter is heatsoaked and fails to do its job OR there is a dead spot on the starter armature. Whacking the starter with a dead blow hammer, etc. will usually jar it enough for it to work again with the latter problem. The former is usually remedied by use of a remote starter solenoid, the Chevy guys would cringe but then install and old Ford remote solenoid and all was well. They used to offer heatshields for some starters but I'm not real sure they worked. One solution is to remove the starter and take it to a good rebuild shop and describe the problem. They usually have tricks to make this problem go away. RT
 
exoduse35

exoduse35

Sustaining Member
The problem is either with the starter, flywheel or solinoid. The electrical supply sounds as though you have looked at it carefuly, and the engine itself runs if you get it to turn over.Tthe starter motor is just that, with a gear on the end that is thrust out and meshes with the teeth on the flywheel. It then rotates, turning the engine over. The solonoid is basicaly a combination relay and electro-magenetic piston. When energized, it is drawn back to the 2 large studs on the back of the case ( one has the battery cable, the other is run to the motor). This slide action is also connected to a lever that forces the drive gear (called a bendex) out to the flywheel. The teeth on the bendex have a taper on the front edge to help align them with the teeth on the flywheel. Over time a mismatch in the alignment of the gears will wear either set of teeth and cause the teeth to sometimes hit each other instead of sliding past each other. Unless they mesh the solonoid will not fully draw back jumping the two posts and causing rotation. Also in sliding back and forth the piston inside the solonoid will wear the housing, and cause it again to stick short of engauging the posts. Finaly the motor will get a short in some of the stator's blades causing a dead spot in the motor and it will not want to begin driving if it lands in that spot after its last use. Pull the starter, inspect the teeth on the entire flywheel... it should look the same all the way around but will only wear in a couple places as the enging always stops in the same place of a compression stroke. If all looks well, take the starter to rebuild shop and have it tested (even many auto parts stores can test it) I am confident that by then the problem and how to fix it will be clear, even if I wasn't! Edd
 
toddster

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Well, just for completeness, another failure mode is the contacts inside the solenoid actually wear out over time. The solenoid throws (click) but no connection is made. The last time that happened to me, the replacement parts actually cost less than a dollar. Of course there were two days of labor involved in extracting and replacing the thing without pulling the motor. Most of which involved discovering the proper (barely possible) method.
 
Sven

Sven

Seglare
I'd suspect the bendix drive. I had a similar problem with my old 1965 Spitfire. I'd have to tap the starter or rock the car a bit in gear. The gear would not shoot out and engage the flywheel but either was just stuck or struck the flywheel without meshing. Finally fixed that by just cleaning out the mechanism and oiling it and it worked until I sold it 1+ year later.



-Sven
 
A

adavid

Member II
The link that Joe provided below is right on. Though, even with that, my '86 E28 had this same exact problem. The previous owner did the wiring change, but after a little while had the same problem. For the first 2 years that I had the boat, I continued to have the proble. I checked lots of things and got input from multiple mechanics. The one thing that seemed to help at least for a few weeks was to replace the starter button with a generic button from Autozone. I did this 5 times, and always had an extra just in case.

I did finalize fix the problem, and there hasn't been an issue for 3 years. I went though the entire ignition circuit and pulled each connection apart, cleaned and sanded it, and sprayed it with electrical connector spray. This included the battery ground, the fuel pump, the ignition switch, the starter button, the starter, and I think most importantly, the engine harness. After spending an hour doing this one day, the headaches went away, and the engine then started with the first push every time. There hasn't been a starting issue in 4 years.

I encourage anyone having this problem to spend the hour to do this. I had multiple mechanics look at this prior and also spoke to many with diesel engines, and nobody suggested that having all of these connections very clean was important.

Good Luck!
Andy


joe-fran said:
My 1987 E-28 does the same thing. 4 years now. It used to bother me but it always fires up on the first.(most of the time) second, third, or fourth push on the start button.
It is an electrical issue and probably not a flywheel issue.

See link below


http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/local_links.php?action=jump&catid=116&id=696
Click to expand...
 
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