Handhold Refinish Advice

[EMKoper]

All- Thanks again for the input and assistance as I learn about basic sailboat maintenance. Since I like painting things (something about the immediate visual positive feedback after painting/refinishing something) and it looks like my 35-3 handholds haven't been touched for years, looking for basic advice on how to tackle these.

The options that I see fit into two categories ... (1) finish "in place" or (2) remove and finish in my basement. Each seems to have as many up sides as down sides in my mind except that (1) is highly dependent on the weather and multiple days of dryness (day and night) or a clever canvas covering and (2) might have unknown issues (discussed below). I have my thoughts on the first order pros/cons/unknowns ... please comment.

First, my general plan to treat them would be some stain to ensure a color tone match with other wood I am refinishing, 2-3 coats of West 105/207 epoxy, and then ~ 2 coats of nice spar varnish.

Ok, the pros/cons (my thoughts):

(1) Finish in place

Pros:
- They don't leak today, no point removing them now
- Can replace the few missing teak plugs and treat everything "in place"

Cons:
- Potential mess on the deck, careful masking job needed
- Constrained in time/place doing this on the boat (about 2 hours from my house... weekends only)
- Issues with moisture, rain and/or building a weather cover (that doesn't blow away)
- Sailing likely shut down until current coat dries fully

Unknowns:
- Not sure I can cover/paint the underside of the rail so completely (maybe)

(2) Remove and treat at home

Pros:
- Can work at a slower pace, be more careful
- These rails have probably never been removed and I can re-bed them at the same time
- More complete coverage (top/bottom)

Cons:
- Must ensure the attachments holes on the boat don't leak until reinstalled (not sure how I'd do that, but can probably do this sufficiently to keep sailing during the maintenance time-period)
- They have never been removed, any time I remove anything on this boat it turns into a bigger job
- Will have to install teak plugs afterward re-install and spot finish those after install -- might look inconsistent (horrible or strange) at those spots

Unknowns:
- I am presuming these were steam formed/bent at one time ... will they straighten slowly if removed?
- If I epoxy/varnish them will they "crack" if I have to manhandle them to get it reinstalled due to straightening?
- Will treating the plugs after install look horrible? I presume I can epoxy the tops of them and only have to varnish after re-install.

For some reason, I am very concerned about them "straightening" a litte over a small amount of time after I pull them off and it either being a pain to re-install or cracking the coating since I'll have to re-bend them a little to reattach.

Thanks for any input ...

 

[Christian Williams]

Is that gray unfinished teak? In the photo they look OK, just in need of finish. Hard to tell from the pictures.

If it's me--and I intended to keep the existing handholds--I would really try to avoid taking them off, based on my recent experience with the frame of a sliding hatch. The old screws are hard to get out and may get buggered or break off; the plug holes have to be preserved undamaged; and the screws may enter interior handholds, which doubles the trouble potential.

I think --if taking them off-- I would be prepared to have to buy or make new ones, which is not all that hard.

But if they're actually OK, I would definitely lean toward refinishing them in place. Lots of waterproof 3m blue tape to protect the deck, strip (heat gun if it's varnish), bleach, CPES, then varnish.

There are some quick dry varnishes that allow 2-3 coats a day for the first few coats, and only the last coat has to be on a perfect varnishing day.

I'm facing this, too, although just stripping varnish and starting over on the exterior grab rails. (I think mine are mahogany)

 

[EMKoper]

Just grey teak

They are structurally sound and just "grey" teak (the dark spots in the photo are just water drips from cleaning out and filling the water tanks yesterday)... one spot is starting to splinter a little but just just on the surface, not a major structural issue. I am sure they were varnished at some point in time, but I can't find any varnish flakes, even on the underside.

I don't know if they connect to the inside hand rails ... that is probably something that I'd discover later and fall into the category of "discovery" that would make the job 2x as long!

When you say just "finish" what steps of cleaning, scrubbing, oiling, epoxy-ing, varnishing do you suggest? If left on my own ... I'd hand-sand ... apply clear penetrating epoxy (i'vd had good luck with smiths, maybe 3 coats) and then go right to varnish ... I'll research the "quick dry" as I haven't heard of such a thing, yet.

 

[Christian Williams]

That's the question, all right.

I would sand, multiple bleach with oxalic acid until flawless, and then use the three-bottle West Marine overpriced teak system: clean, bleach, oil.

I've tried everything else, and WM oil is the best I've found and contains no dyes or varnish or other "improvement." All 'long-lasting" products are hard to get off, which backfires.

Then repeat every three months, muttering. But varnish is worse. Repeat every six months, muttering. Put off for a few years, and it's seven coats again from scratch, and actual cursing.

But oil/varnish is one of those questions....and why people go to stainless steel

 

[Tom Metzger]

On my E-34 I took them off and refinished them at home. It allowed me to do a reasonable job on the bottom of the rail without covering the deck with the Cetol.

I don't remember much problem taking the rails off. They are held on with large sheet metal screws. I may have had to use an impact driver, but don't really remember. Holding the bend while reinstalling them was quite easy.

 

[fool]

Mine were a tinted Cetol with a few spots that were breaking down due to UV.

Light sanding, feathered the edges of the open spots, blue tape to protect all surfaces. Careful application of satin finish Cetol with foam brush and careful rag placement to catch any careless drips. Tip, use a flat bottom, square, sealable, disposable, plastic food container as your reservoir and not the can. Fortunately drips were neatly avoided with moderate care in technique.

Second light sanding the next day and a another application. Let dry before carefully pulling tape. I'll put on another two layers before the sailing season hits and as soon as the sunbrella rail covers are sewn, the other part of this project already in the works.

Were mine in your condition I'd do a good teak cleaning, as Christian recommends, and use Cetol again. The tint doesn't bother me and they've expanded tint options and surface finishes since the original formulation. Cetol was much friendlier to use than varnish. Sun covers will go far toward reducing future brushwork.

I've done the west system epoxy/shiny varnish finish routine in a previous life (on a wooden boat). While there are few things more pleasurable than simple messing around with boats, it is an entirely different experience to be watching others sail while sitting on deck holding a brush. Varnish also requires a...different investment in brushes and brush care than disposable foam.

To borrow a phrase from another forum that sums up my experience. "Cetol is for those who love boating, varnish is for those who love boats."

Cheers,

September Sun,
ERY35240S686

 

[Rick R.]

Be careful or you may overthink this,,,,,,,

FWIW, I would say "brighten" them up in place. I do ours twice per year. It takes a little time and some blue tape. The hardest part is cleaning the tape residue off the the deck afterwards.

 

[Frank Langer]

As you can see, everyone will have an opinion on this one! On some boats the exterior handrails are thru -bolted to the inside handrails in which case I would definitely not remove them. I initially stripped ours to bare wood and then applied three coats of varnish. I do a light sand with 220 grit paper twice per year and add another coat of varnish. That has worked for ten years, looks great--better than all the alternatives! Also, I use a small foam brush to apply and I don't use masking tape but keep a rag handy in case of a drip. In summary, keep it simple and it's quite quick, very doable and is worth the effort given how good it looks.

Frank

 

[Loren Beach]

And then there's Plan B. In our archives is a picture of a replacement of the handrails on a 38 with oval polished ss tubing. With indents to "countersink" slightly the heads of ss fasteners, it looked great.

Loren

 

[Tom Metzger]

On my E-34 I took them off and refinished them at home. It allowed me to do a reasonable job on the bottom of the rail without covering the deck with the Cetol.

I don't remember much problem taking the rails off. They are held on with large sheet metal screws. I may have had to use an impact driver, but don't really remember. Holding the bend while reinstalling them was quite easy.

To temper my comments a little, I should point out that I have done this once in 19 years of ownership. The other years I do the blue tape, foam brush, and rags routine. Also, on the E-34 and E-32-200 (and others?) the hand rails sit flush on the deck with the deck cut out under them. This makes them harder to get behind.

A pre-purchase pic of an E-333 (PS/E-32-200).

Rick - Two comments: Buy 3M tape and/or come to Lk Champlain where the tape comes off cleanly... we keep the sun turned down.

 

[JPS27]

I appreciate this thread as I'd like to do this project (for the first time) this season. I'm planning on keeping them in place to avoid any domino effect projects. Christian mentioned CPES as one of the steps. I hadn't considered that one. And I'm sure like everything else in the varnishing world it's a matter of opinion. But what are the "up sides" of using CPES? Thanks.

Jay

 

[Christian Williams]

The idea is to protect the wood and make varnish last longer. If the wood is taken down to bare surface, it's just one added step. But it means varnish forever, because thereafter the sealed wood won't take oil.

Here's the pitch:

http://www.smithandcompany.org/varnishpriming.html

 

[JPS27]

Christian, that west marine 3 part approach you mentioned ends with oil. I presume that's a teak oil type product? So you can put CPES on top of that?

 

[Christian Williams]

Right, the clear WM product is just teak oil, priced for yachting.

No CPES involved (it closes the wood). Teak oil needs to be absorbed and then renewed as necessary.

 

[u079721]

If I were going through the trouble of removing the rails, I would for sure replace them with stainless tubing so as to NEVER have to refinish them again.

In my case I sanded the grab rails down to bare fresh wood, coated with about six coats of Cetol (the tinted version), and after that put a fresh coat each spring of the clear Cetol top coat. I used the clear to avoid additional darkening from the tinted version of Cetol, which does tend to color the wood some. It didn't look as nice as a good golden varnish job, but it was very durable. Even after 10 years of use I still hadn't needed to fix any spots, and there had been no lifting. Real varnish just seems like too much work, and not worth the trouble.

 

[jarnold67]

Removal Experience on my E26

I removed these as part of the gut renovation of our 1985 E26. They were in a similar condition as what you have, and so we replaced them with new pieces of wood that were treated with epoxy and then varnish. I wouldn't worry about the bend - when you replace the section and put in the first lag bolt, the curve is pretty gentle. But if you are of mind to take the handhold piece out, I would be careful to check the underlying deck. I found a number of the lag bolt opening to be wet and there were spider cracks at some locations. You can see an example of one the cracks (which was visible with the handhold in place) in the upper portion of this photo of a port window during removal.

All the best,
John

 

[olsenjohn]

SS 38 Handrails Archive?

And then there's Plan B. In our archives is a picture of a replacement of the handrails on a 38 with oval polished ss tubing. With indents to "countersink" slightly the heads of ss fasteners, it looked great.

Loren

Hi Loren - Stainless Steel handrails is exactly what we want to replace our wooden ones with. I searched on the site but couldn't find the pictures you refer to. Perhaps I am just searching illiterate.... but could you post a link?

Thanks!

 

[Loren Beach]

Found it, but the original pix links are broken. That is a good reason why we do not encourage external links.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?3568-Stainless-Steel-Handrails

It's been a few years, but I recall seeing that particular Ericson listed for sale, and there was some discussion on line that the owner had died.

He put up some very helpful information here, is all that I know for sure.

Loren

 

[Grizz]

But then again...

...if you're courting a Dock Queen, such as this teak from a friend's Passport 40, you've got to be presentable. This teak was as grey as they grey that started this thread. 14 coats later and not much of a life in between, you earn this:

 

[Emerald]

Isn't it amazing how much work goes into making a 2x3 look good?