Extreme weather helm

[Carlos]

My question concerns extreme weather helm. I bought my 1984 Ericson 30+ a little over a year ago. A couple of times, when sailing, the wind was blowing some 15 to 20 knots. With full sails up (110% jib), I experienced what I believed to be extreme weather helm. Whenever I would bear off from a close haul to a close reach the wheel would just stop turning. It felt like something was blocking the rudder or steering. I could easily turn back but I could not bear off more than about 60 or 70 degrees from the wind. A friend who has owned and sailed many sloops sailed with me and could not believe all the weather helm. He thought something must be wrong with the rudder. I could not find anything wrong with the rudder or steering. Another time when the wind was blowing pretty good I put one reef in the main, and fully deployed the jib, I could turn from a close haul to a run with little resistance in the steering.

Does anyone know what is causing all of the weather helm? Has this happened to anyone else? Is it normal with these boats? Is there anything I can do about it aside from modifing the heck out of the boat? From what I can determine of this boat it is just as it came from the factory, sails and all.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

Just my guess

I am not familiar with the 30+, I sail a 29 T and the sail area of the 29 T main was reduced by shortening the foot of the main to 10’ down from 12’ and adding 2 ‘ to the luff, this was done to reduce weather helm. The 30+ is slightly larger than the 29T and has about The 29 is also a full rig that gives more headsail area to balance the main. In heavy air above 20 the 29T requires the main eased on gusts to prevent the helm needing to be turned near lock position.

Looking at the 30+ specs it looks like the boat has a large sail area for the boat weight and size; I would guess she is great in light air which is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with the boat you will have to reef early. Also flattening the main by the outhaul or easing the main a little will help so play with sail trim to balance the boat. You can always reef but you can’t make the wind blow harder be thankful you have a boat that sails in light air.

That is my guess. Now let’s see what the 30+ owners say.

 

[NateHanson]

Dropping the traveler and increasing the backstay tension on a fractional rig will also depower the main, to reduce weatherhelm.

It's normal in 15-20 knots, especially on a tender boat, to be unable to go from close-hauled to a beam reach without easing the sails some, especially if flying a lot of canvas. Excessive heeling and weather helm are indications that it's time to reef. Keep the boat on it's feet first (heeling about 20 degrees or so), and then trim the sails to balance the helm. Once the boat is not heeling excessively, if the boat heads strongly to weather, take power out of the main. If the boat tracks has lee helm reef the genoa, or depower it by moving the fairlead aft, and tightening the halyard or cunningham.

 

[TwistedLogic]

Make sure you check the rake of the mast. If the mast head is raked to the aft, you will experience more weather helm.

 

[Loren Beach]

Having sailed a large fractional rig on smaller cruisers for well over a decade, I would guess that the main is stretched out and the draft has migrated too far aft in the sail. Once it stretches out, there is no way you can "adjust out" that excess draft and bring the curve back forward enough.

How old is that main? If original, it is waaaay past time for a recut if the cloth will still hold stitching, or more likely replacement...

It is also worth remembering that weather helm can be caused or worsened by a stretched out main on any kind of rig, but with more proportionate sail area in a large frational-rig main, you will notice it sooner than you might with a more "IOR-ish" small main in masthead-rigged boat designed in the 70's/early 80's.
The later boats will have similar shape issues in their oversize headsails instead!
(Entropy affects 'em all, in time... dacron is not forever...)

My .02 worth,
Loren

 

[sleather]

When sailing upwind ease the traveler when you feel or see an incoming gust of wind. On a tiller boat it's readily apparent when the rudder's going into weatherhelm "mode"(you have to fight the tiller) w/ a wheel. Sailing upwind you should be able to maintain the same approx. angle of heel only using the traveler.

When bearing off it's critical to ease the main as you head-down! The jib can be eased later as a trimmed in jib helps pull the bow down when bearing off.

If all else fails it's time to "REEF" the main. 15-20-25's commonly the time for the first reef(depends on the boat).

 

[Cory B]

How old is that main? If original, it is waaaay past time for a recut if the cloth will still hold stitching, or more likely replacement...

On our previous boat, we replaced a 20+ yr old main with a new one... It was like sailing a new boat, with weatherhelm issues drastically reduced. And as someone else mentioned, Ericsons in general need to be reefed earlier than many other boats.

 

[Frank Langer]

We also have a 1984 Ericson 30+ and have not experienced what you are describing, nor have I come across that in the extensive reading we have done on this and other sites about the E30+ boats. Our boat is nicely balanced, so that in winds of about 12 knots if I set the sails correctly and lock in the rudder (wheel steering), I can sit back and the boat will sail herself at close to hull speed without me having to do anything. I tell you this so you don't lose confidence in the boat, it's design, etc.

In our experience, the boat is happiest with full sails up (main and 135 degree headsail) in winds up to about 17 knots; after that I'll furl the headsail a bit and add a first reef. Further furling and a second reef at about 22 knots or so (can't remember exactly). She sails best when heeled up to about 20 degrees, not more (though sometimes a bit more is fun too! ). Other adjustments to halyard tension, outhaul, backstay, traveller are helpful, as others have pointed out above.

In summary, I don't think the problem you are having is one of boat design, but rather something either in the way your sails are cut (or worn out), or in your sail trim. So I think it's fixable--do you have an experienced sailor around who can sail with you to get a second opinion on what it might be?
Good luck!
Frank.

 

[Meanolddad]

I agree with Frank, reef early and keep the 30+ on her feet. Our 30+ is a tiller boat so you can really tell when you have to much weather helm. I have a main with full battens and roach so we fly in light air. With such a large main the boat does have excessive weather helm if you let it get over powered. Dropping the traveler to leeward also helps. If you have a flattening reef that also helps. We take the first reef at around 14-16 knots then roll up some jib. If the wind is just a local condition, (Hurricane Gulch in San Pedro, CA) we ease the traveller until we are past the wind. The 30+ should sail itself in light air as Frank stated. In light air we can just let go of the tiller for long periods and Regalus just sails herself.
Hope this all helps
Greg

 

[Rocinante33]

The tendency for a crew with a boat that has roller furling, is to reef the genoa before the main. With our fractional rig, I find that it is better to reef the main first, then the jib, to prevent that weather helm you are talking about. The main is SO big in comparison to the jib. Think of all that force behind the mast (from the main), trying to push the stern to leeward. As that happens, the bow is rotated to weather, hence the weather helm. The solution - reef the main.

Our E33 is very tender with that big main. Your 30+ may be the same, or YMMV!

 

[Carlos]

Excellent advice. It looks like the first thing I'll do is check the sail and see if it has "blown-out" and also check the rake of the mast. I'll probably end up buying a new main sail as the one I have looks like the original.

What do you think of battenless sails?

 

[NateHanson]

What do you think of battenless sails?

Good for a roller-furling main or most any headsail now-a-days, but there's not much point in forgoing battens on a hoisted mainsail. You'll be giving up sail area in the leach/roach, and the sail will be more difficult to handle.

 

[tenders]

I totally agree with Nate on that.

This is slightly off-topic but I have a vertically-battened, roller-furling, dacron 150% genoa that I like a lot. It was made by Beirig Sails in Erie, PA and has been very durable. The battens keep the sail from flogging and have greatly reduced its distortion.

 

[DanranE38]

[How old is that main? If original, it is waaaay past time for a recut if the cloth will still hold stitching, or more likely replacement...

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH both posts about stretched out sails. After we replaced the original main on our 1980 E-38 with a fully battened main the difference was night and day. The boat was no longer tender, and the days of reefing when the winds hit above 15 knots are just a bad memory. The new main actually has a bit more sail area than the original but because it is not all bagged out the center of effort stays forward and the boat just gets in a groove and moves forward really fast instead of going on a wild round up ride.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

On old mains often the boltrope has shrank and is preventing the sail form flattening. On my E29 T the luff was 6” short and the foot was 4” short. After cutting the stitching for the boltrope and milking the sail down the rope the sail returned to the original measurement and took on a more desirable shape. The draft moved forward of center and the pillow shape at the bottom half was gone.

Measure the sail and if the sail is short a few inches letting the bolt rope slide down the luff and in the foot might help.

You can suspend the sail between three points parallel to and a couple of feet off the ground and this way you can see the true shape of the sail

If the cloth is in decent shape this might be worth the effort.

 

[NateHanson]

On old mains often the boltrope has shrank and is preventing the sail form flattening. On my E29 T the luff was 6” short and the foot was 4” short. After cutting the stitching for the boltrope and milking the sail down the rope the sail returned to the original measurement and took on a more desirable shape. The draft moved forward of center and the pillow shape at the bottom half was gone.

Measure the sail and if the sail is short a few inches letting the bolt rope slide down the luff and in the foot might help.

You can suspend the sail between three points parallel to and a couple of feet off the ground and this way you can see the true shape of the sail

If the cloth is in decent shape this might be worth the effort.

Thanks for reminding me of this! A friend did that with his sail a few years ago, and it really made a huge difference. I'd since forgotten about that fix. My main is in decent shape (not bad enough to spring for a new one, but unshapely enough to make me WISH for a new one), and I'm going to haul it out now and see if restitching the bolt ropes would be helpful on this sail.

 

[sleather]

Bolt Rope

Just a thought, now that everyones thinking "bolt-rope". Would it be possible to suspend the main between some trees(good for some thing) and apply tension w/ a "come-along" when the bolt-rope is wet and leave to dry while under tension?.........just a thought, as the bolt rope "is" anchored at the ends.

 

[NateHanson]

Just a thought, now that everyones thinking "bolt-rope". Would it be possible to suspend the main between some trees(good for some thing) and apply tension w/ a "come-along" when the bolt-rope is wet and leave to dry while under tension?.........just a thought, as the bolt rope "is" anchored at the ends.

My impression was that the shrinkage was not a reversible thing, but that might be a question for your sailmaker. The task of restitching the boltrope was not that big of a deal when my friend did it.

 

[Frank Langer]

I had bolt rope shrinkage on a previous boat, and was able to "fix" it by wetting the sail thoroughly, then raising it and tensioning the halyard until it stretched the bolt rope to where I wanted it, and then letting it dry before lowering the sail.

Although it sounds a bit brutal, it worked well, with no noticeable negative after effects for either the sail or the bolt rope. This avoided having to send the sail to a sail loft.

Frank.

 

[Shaggy]

My impression was that the shrinkage was not a reversible thing, but that might be a question for your sailmaker. The task of restitching the boltrope was not that big of a deal when my friend did it.

If "shrinkage" isn't reversible, I'm in big trouble....