E38 Water system layout?

[rwthomas1]

Hello All,
I am in the process of spring commissioning and trying to figure out how the water system in an E38 is laid out. In my 1983 E38 there are two water tanks, one in the bow, 40 gallons? and one starboard under the salon berth also 40gallons? I filled both tanks to capacity with a shock treatment of bleach then ran all the plumbing fixtures until the antifreeze was purged. I left the system overnight pressurized. This morning I ran each fixture for a long period of time, many minutes alternately to purge the system and dump the bleach. Here are the things I don't understand about the system:

1. There appears to be a vent line that connects both water tanks together. Since the bow tank is higher than the starboard tank, the bow tank bleeds off into the starboard tank even if the bow tank is shutoff. Any reason for this?
2. The waterpump, Shurflo (Shurfail?) brand I think, is mounted in the engine "room" on the starboard side just behind the fuel filter. Is there any reason why it would be there? Seems like a fairly hot location and well above the water tanks so it has to suck water uphill. Does this make sense? I would think it better to have it mounted down next to the starboard tank where the two tanks "Y" together?
3. The waterpump seems to cavitate from time to time. The water will flow well, nice and strong and then after a while it will spit and foam a bit with much reduced flow. If I shut it off and wait a while and then turn it back on the flow is normal again. Any ideas?
4. Is there a practical way to simply dump the water tank contents without running the water out with the waterpump?
5. Recommend a publication with good information on how to properly plumb and service water systems on boats?

The system also has a water heater, shore power/engine heat type and an expansion tank under the sink. All ideas, recommendations and help appreciated. Thanks, RT

 

[footrope]

Hey Rob,

I can help with a couple of your questions, having just been through my system. My bow tank is supposed to be 60 gal. and my starboard fwd settee tank is supposed to be about 22 gal. I do not have the optional third 22 gal. tank in the aft settee. I have the head & shower on the forward port side, galley is starboard aft.

1. Your boat might be a little weird or it might be an alternate configuration. My original bow tank vent dumps into the head sink. It's a short run and works fine. The original settee vent ran all the way back to the galley sink and that arrangement on mine and others was not satisfactory. Others didn't have as big a problem with it, though. And some adapted to it quite ingeniously.

I have since tied my settee vent to the bow tank filler and eliminated the run back to the galley. Thread is here: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1909

So far so good, but this summer will be the real test. We have about 3 weeks planned on the boat for trips and vacations. This arrangement can't transfer water during normal operation, but it can during the filling if you let the hose run after a tank fills.

2. Doesn't sound like a great location. My pump and pressure tank are located kind of high also. They're in the starboard lazarette, all the way forward and outboard. The pump is below the pressure tank. I'll attach a picture if you're interested.

3. Not sure about this one, but it sounds like what my settee tank did when the vent was filled with water and couldn't draw air into the tank. The tank would work until the pressure couldn't overcome the vacuum from the plugged vent. Stopping for awhile would allow air to seep back into the system and voila - works fine again for awhile.

4. Not that I have found - and I wonder about overworking the pressure pump. I'm thinking about rigging up a spare electric bilge pump with a long pickup hose and an output hose that will go overboard or out to the cockpit.

5. No recommendation here, but if you search the site you'll find some.

There is quite a bit of discussion on water systems on the board, so you'll get some more answers if you search.

Good luck,

 

[rwthomas1]

Well, here is the progress or lack thereof:
1. I have traced the tank vents and the starboard tank (looks about 25gallons) vents into the bow tank (looks like about 60 gallons) and then the bow tank vents to the sink in the head. Vents are clear.

2. The plumbing is a wild mix of what looks like the original grey plastic line, reinforced PVC, and even a short section of engine water hose to hook up the pressure tank! Lovely.

3. I have check at Lowes/HD and they both suck. They have very little of the plastic hose/fittings. I am considering using PEX (house plumbing) to run from the two tanks to the water pump. Unfortunately this is the most expensive option.

4. I have pulled the Shurflow to check it out and it seems fine, pumps in a bucket, etc. Checked the diaphram, its okay. Plenty of pressure. The pump used to shutdown, now it just runs continuously with very little flow.

I think the water pump is cavitating. I can sometimes see air in the intake line to the pump. It is possibly coming from the foot pump that is Teed in before the Shurflow. I am going to remount the Shurflow under the sink, shorten and clean up all the lines and then install a shut off in the foot pump line to see if that fixes it. I have also considered installing the Shuflow in the hanging locker. It would be much closer to the tanks and should work better there. Any reason I shouldn't?

Footrope, it appears our boats are the same layout by your description. Thanks for the input, RT

 

[Glyn Judson]

Rob, This may not be totally to the subject of your plumbing nightmare but when we got our E31, the plumbing looked a lot like what you dscribe. Funny, I had some sort of air leak too abd those two things convinced me to rip it all out and start from scratch. I have a 25 gallon aank under the V-berth and a 45 gallon tank under the cabin sole. With one or the otehr open, I couldn't pull water properly to either sink. After replaceing all copper and vinyl hose scraps with new reinforced hose, I set out to design a fresh water management system under the galley sink that consisted of off-the-shelf brass and bronze plumbing. First of all I connected both tanks via barbs, etc. to either end of a manifold made up of 1/2" threaded pipe with a series of ball valves and T-fittingds added in. Each valve controls, both tanks, a sink and also a freshwater engine flush. I could go on but I think you get the idea. Now all water in the boat can be controlled at one point, a great improvement compared to what was there from the factory. I had this system of mine published as an article in Good Old Boat Magazine several years and it included a photo of what it looks like, a plumbing schematic and a parts list based on West Marine sq numbers. I'd be happy to send a copy your way, either as an attachment to an email or as a hard copy in the US Mail. Email me at glynjudson@adelphia.net and tell me what you'd like. Oh, about the time I hit the send button, we'll begin preparing to leave for Catalina Island until Sunday. So if you miss me tonight, I'll get a copy to you somehow Sunday night. Anyone else interested in this offer are welcome to contact me also. Hope this helps, Glyn

 

[rwthomas1]

Hmmmm,
Is regular reinforced PVC hose good enough to run the whole system with? Easier and cheaper than PEX. I was thinking PEX for the supply since the unions are so stout and the line very rigid to better withstand the vacuum from the pump.

Glyn, you got mail!

Thanks, RT

 

[Glyn Judson]

Rob, I don't know if your last note was directed to me or not but I used reinforced vinyl hose in my boat, not PVC. What is reinforced PVC hose anyway? Sorry for all the typos in my last note. Glyn

 

[rwthomas1]

Glyn,
Well yes and kinda.... PVC is Polyvinyl chloride, commonly known as vinyl, same stuff. RT

 

[Glyn Judson]

>>snip Glyn, Well yes and kinda.... PVC is Polyvinyl chloride, commonly known as vinyl, same stuff. RT Rob, Live and learn, I never made the conection but now that you point it out, the V in PVC sure is vinyl. Thanks, Glyn

 

[Sean Engle]

2. The waterpump, Shurflo (Shurfail?) brand I think, is mounted in the engine "room" on the starboard side just behind the fuel filter. Is there any reason why it would be there? Seems like a fairly hot location and well above the water tanks so it has to suck water uphill.
3. The waterpump seems to cavitate from time to time. The water will flow well, nice and strong and then after a while it will spit and foam a bit with much reduced flow. If I shut it off and wait a while and then turn it back on the flow is normal again.

I moved my entire pump from the same location as yours to the shelf in the saillocker of my 35-3 - then added a large stainless expansion tank. Done to reduce the noise and the heat from the engine, it solved many problems with spattering flows, etc - everything ran very smoothly after that... It did have to suck the water up into the expansion tank - which then sent it down (not very far down - perhaps 2") to the spigots, etc...

One project I wanted to do was to run a line from my starboard fresh water tank through a check valve and then to a tee on my raw water line. The idea was that once I got back to the dock, I could toss the switch and blow all the salt out of my exchanger, etc.

It would have been 'Project 3324A' - never got to it...

//sse

 

[u079721]

As for the cavitating, one cause can be the strainer on the upstream side of the water pump. Any air leak here will cause the behavior that you mention.

As for what hose to use, reinforced vinyl hose (the clear Tygon tubing with polyester braid) would work, but it leaves a bit of taste to the water IMNSHO. The original tubing on many Ericsons was grey polybutlyene tubing, which was fantastic for not adding any taste to the water. The next best thing today would be to use one of the newer polyethylene systems. A bit more money and trouble than simple vinyl tubing to be sure, but the results are worth it. Our water system had no taste at all, and we drank the water directly out of our tanks, which seems to be pretty rare aboard boats.

 

[hodo]

Water system

Rob, I have the original e38 plumbing blueprints for my 85 e38. it appears to be for several years coverage. I think Kinko can copy them for about 5 bucks. I don't know what the shipping would be. I am going to get them to Sean and see if he can get them on the web site . How soon do you need them, if you do? Harold , S/V Mischief Maker

 

[rwthomas1]

Update!

I reworked my potable water system today! I relocated the Shurflo pump to under the sink and installed a new diaphram and a strainer on the intake. I replumbed by using new adaptors to the old grey polybutlyene supply line to hook up reinforced PVC 1/2" hose. I replumbed the accumulator and the pressure side too. I did not reconnect the foot pump yet as I want to make sure the system works fine and that was not an issue. All works well now! Its just a Shurflo 2.8gpm so the flow is adequate. I wanted to upgrade to a higher flow pump but need the cash for other things.... Next time it dies I guess. Thanks for all the input. RT

 

[John Butler]

Rob, I'm also a new owner of an E38 (1982) trying to sort out the potable water system. I think I've also experienced the "cavitating" you describe. If I press the foot pump a few times (the previous owner showed me this) it stops. I think the foot pump must be letting air into the system and working the pump stops the air leak. Not very satisfactory, but for now I can live with it. My pump is also in the engine room. No time right now to take on the task of relocating it, although from reading this thread it sounds like something to put on the list of things to do.
John

 

[rwthomas1]

John Butler,
Congrats on the E38! We absolutely love ours and I think you will feel the same about yours in a very short time. The reworking of the plumbing I described above is fairly simple and doesn't take much time once you know what you need to do. I think 3-4 hrs working fairly steadily. You might just try a ball valve in the footpump supply line to get you by. RT

 

[John Butler]

Rob,
This was the weekend I was going to try adding a valve in the footpump supply line. When checking out the line to assess the job, I found there was already a valve installed! Turning it off seems to have done the trick. Thanks for the suggestion!
John Butler
Bethesda, MD
1982 Ericson E38 "Red Rover"

 

[rwthomas1]

Excellent! Its nice when you figure something out and someone has already corrected the problem! Enjoy, RT