E23-1 Buyer inspection

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nomad

Junior Member
I am considering an Ericson 23 as my first sailboat. I am seriously considering getting a professional survey, but I'm doing the initial surveys myself. I've read Don Casy's "Inspecting an Aging Sailboat" five times over and now I'm out looking at boats... and full of newbie questions.

1-On an e23 Mk 1 I noticed that the keel bolts were 'uncovered'/'uncoated' and rusty. Is this normal? Sound? Any reason for concern?

2-How should the e23 hull/ keel joint look when the boats on the hard. I assume this area holds the potential for leaks. (???) One Mk-1 I looked at felt like it a had a ridge of some filler material/ calking running along the joint under the paint. (next time I'll bring a camera.)

3-I also noticed that the fiberglass interior of the Mk-1 doesn't give much access to the hull nor does it provide much storage. Is the Mk-2 better in this regard? Are there problem areas on the hull/deck joint? Where is the best place to inspect the hull/deck joint of a Mk1?

4-One mk1 had an adjustable outboard bracket bolted on below the normal outboard 'cutout' in the transom. Is there a problem with the stock location? Is it particularly weak or difficult location. Any ideas why someone would do this?

5-Anything unique to the e23 I should watch out for? Any gotcha's?

I have many more more questions but I'll stop here.... Any advice or nudges in the right direction would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Thanks!

Jason
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I'm not sure on this particular design, but often the bolts for the rubrail that covers the hull-deck flange are glassed over on the inside, so there may not be anything to look for up there behind the fiberglass pan.
 
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newgringo

Member III
I know nothing about an E23 but just went thru process on an E32. The surveyor I hired for big bucks did a good job on the hull and cabin and looking around. Did not even look at the rigging or run the engine. I learned a buyer needs to hire another type skill to do those inspections. I makes sense to make sure just what a surveyor is going to survey before hiring them.
 
Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Jason,

I’ve got an E23 Mk1 and really like it. When I think about getting a bigger boat I just have to remind myself how easy it is to single hand and how often I get out because of that.

To your questions;

1- Keel bolts.
Mine are uncovered stainless. I did think they were leaking when I first got the boat but it ended up being something else.

2- Keel/hull joint.
I can’t remember how it looked when I had it out for a bottom paint job but I think it was pretty fair, no visible seams or bumps.

3- Interior access to hull/deck joint and storage.
You should be able to unscrew the boards that cover the joint on the inside. My boat had 8” strips of luan plywood. Storage can be increased by cutting into the seat backs, do a search on "E-29 Adding Cubbie Holes Behind Settee Seat Backs" and scroll down to my post there are some photos there on how I did it on my E23.

4- Outboard.
Shouldn’t be a problem with a long shaft outboard.

5- As with any boat this age look for soft spots on the deck (rotten core) check the area around the mast for settling or cracked fiberglass.

Good luck!
 
Chris Miller

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
ask for a sample survey...

Most surveyors will provide you with a sample survey before you hire them. A marine surveyor should have checked you engine-- rigging is a little touchier, but they still should have given it a visual inspection (looked for obvious stuff). And the engine should have been given a full inspection before, during, and after a sea trial.
Isn't one of the board members here a working surveyor? He'd be able to help more. One of my close friends is a surveyor (this is the worlds greatest blessing!), and he checks all that stuff.
Just my $0.02
Chris
 
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Bob in Va

Member III
Mark 1 vs. Mark 2

The E-23 Mark 1 was a strong, attractive, and well-performing boat when it was brought out in the late 60s. Because it was well built and not made to compete with the cheapies, a number of them are still being sailed today and continue to give their owners good value. Quite a few found their way to San Francisco Bay and seemed to thrive on the conditions there, which is a tribute to their seaworthiness. The last one was made in '71. Unlike the Mark 2s, they do not have a compression post directly under the deck stepped mast. For that reason you want to check the area around the mast base on the deck and the bulkhead posts in the cabin for any settling, movement, or deterioration. Because these boats don't sell for big bucks now, most prospective buyers aren't too discriminating regarding sail conditon. Often the sails are pretty well used up and the new owner finds himself searching for new or used sails. He might luck into finding some used ones originally made for another brand, but he will have a hard time finding good used ones for a Mk 1 E-23 - the boats are relatively rare and good used sails for them are even more rare. So if the sails are marginal-to-poor and you plan on keeping the boat for a while, price a new set - it might run more than the boat itself, depending on what you have to pay. If the boat you are looking at has a trailer, that is a big plus. These are real good boats, when they are in good shape, but like all older fiberglass boats they can turn into continuous non-sailing projects if they have not been maintained. The Mark 2 boats were made for the trailer sailer market and most have retractable centerboards for easier launch/recovery/trailering. They have higher aspect rigs, are a little faster in light air, and differ from the Mark 1s in a few other details. In both models, cockpit drainage capacity is so-so, and headroom below explains why Vikings wore those helmets. But in this size, very few other boats offer the performance, beauty, and quality of these at anywhere near the price.
 
N

nomad

Junior Member
One eye'd Captain, Keel bolt photos, Inspection notes

Thanks for everyones responces, very helpful. The trick it seems is finding a boat that's worth the price of a surveyor. Finding an e23 in good nick is a trick.

I looked at a second Ericson 23 Mark I today. (The better one) It seemed well cared for for most of its life except for the last 5-7 years or so... Good looking boat but... it was a no-name boat with a one eye'd owner. (really)

My real question is about the rusty keel bolts. (see pics..) This looks like a show stopper to me... But I really don't know anything about this. Is this a huge issue? Are they all like this?

Don Casey says, "Quality bronze or stainless steel keel bolts can last half a century or longer, but are susceptible to life-shortening corrosin when wet or exposed. If the keel to hull joint isn't completely sealed, keel bolts are likely to develop crevice corrosion. Bilge water is more likely to be the catalyst, so manufacturers often encapusulate the tops in resin to seal them... ...Fortunately catastrophic keel-bolt failure on an otherwise sound fiberglass boat is highly unlikely, but to be sure have the keel x-rayed..." [p. 18 Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Don Casey]

I wrote up my inspection notes for the hell of it. Maybe someone can talk me into this project.

Inside
-This too had a bilge full of water some very very rusty keel bolts. (see pics) (this really worries me) It also had what appeared to be wooden washers sitting under the metal washers. These were definately starting to rot.
-The sea-cocks and through hulls were all totally scary. (original?)
-Electrics worked but were a mess
-Marine Head replaced with cheap porta-potty
-Sink water supply connected to a jug under galley
-No Bilge Pump!

Rigging
-Mast appeared straight (no dents waves etc.)
-The rigging looked good except for the spreaders which were loose and looked "rigged"
-The aft chain-plates "mis-aligned"
-Four lines ran aft
- ample tracks

Deck
-Mast-step area appeared/ sounded solid.
-The forward most 2-1/2 ft of the of the deck, (right up near near the bow) had some cracks and sounded de-laminated.
-2 Lewmar winches had been added aft of the originals.
-The original winch-handle was missing. (needed for mast winch)
-The rubrails were leaking (calking applied to the top of them)
- Deck inside the hatch cracked (see pic)


Sails
-The main sail looked OK
-One of the jibs also looked OK
-The other North Sail Jib was torn with a shabby repair. This jib was made of a thin "plastic like" material... I thought it was a plastic tarp at first.
-There is also a third jib and spinnaker which were not on the boat.

I think this is going to be too big a project for me.... but I'm still considering it at lowball price well under 1000... that is If the keel doesn't fall off... the meantime.:eek:
 

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Bob in Va

Member III
Differences

The Mk 1 keels were external, attached with bolts, while the Mk 2 boats had the lead encapsulated in the fiberglass keel. I have seen keel bolts/nuts that looked really nasty, but really just had a layer of bilge gunk on them and cleaned up to look almost like new. I've also heard of ones that were badly eaten away. The older I get, the more ominous the word "project" becomes. When I was younger, it was an exciting and promising word; now it generally means something that will be eating up some of the finite number of hours I have left on this planet. I've also found that it is easier to get motivated to go out and work on a boat that's already in pretty good shape than it is to dive into one that won't be sailing for a while - perhaps another sign of advancing years. Where are you located? - I might know of another E-23 for sale in your area.
 
Sven

Sven

Seglare
Are you specifically looking for a MK-I, or just an E23 ?

Your list of issues would really turn me off, even if it was free.

I'm with Bob, depending on where you are there are almost certain to be better E23s out there and Bob knows a lot of them.



-Sven
 
E

Emerald

Moderator
Hi,

FWIW, I'd chime in with keep looking unless the boat is a give away - I'd wager it will still be available in 6 months based on what you have said. Fiberglass is very repairable, but you have to balance time, experience and the final value of what you are working on. You mention delamination possibilities in the forward part of the deck. Well, for reference, check out this on my website. It is a mast step recore I just did this winter. The area is about 12 x 9 INCHES. This repair probably has 20-30 solid hours in it, if not more. That may seem like a lot, but to do this right, especially if you have cosmetics to match, can become much more lengthy. Check here for a step by step of what you could be facing in just that part of the boat alone:


http://home.comcast.net/~independence31/core/looksbad.html


Hope this helps give you some reference to evaluate the structure and possible things you are getting into


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 
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NateHanson

Sustaining Member
I'd generally agree that the amount of work for that boat would turn me off. I'm currently refitting a columbia 26 that's frankly in a little better shape than the E23 you described, and I got it for free. It's hard to overestimate the amount of work involved. :)

As far as the keel-bolts though, I don't think yours look bad. Wouldn't be a bad idea to try to pull on and see how they look, but it wouldn't be on the top of my list. The threads are still intact even on the exposed parts, and I've seen ones where the steel was crumbly and they still held just fine.

Also, while stainless steel or bronze might last a long time as keel bolts, you can't use them in an iron keel, because they'll galvanically destroy the threads in the keel. Only mild steel or galvanized steel should be used in iron keels. Lead keels can take stainless, monel, or bronze bolts.

Nate
 
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nomad

Junior Member
Thanks for everyone's knowledge and wisdom in my sailing quest. When it comes to old sail boats, I'm learning to gauge what is normal, acceptable and what is horrible.

My 'balls' always tell me I can find 'deal' out there... and with a little work... (chuckle). Emerald's thru-hull & Mast Step repair articles brought me back down to the reality of old sailboat repairs.

I've learned alot about myself from 'projects' over the years... and I really enjoy the challenges and the satisfactions... but as you pointed out Bob.... I'd rather be sailing. I was inspired by Mark's post on adding cubbie holes. The ideal is to have one's efforts maintain and perhaps improve a boat rather than 'rescuing'one.

I just moved from Austin Texas to Seattle/ Tacoma and I'm totally stoked about being near the mountains and ocean. If you hear about any e23s in the area. I'd love to know about it. They sound quite solid... so there's bound to be one out there that has been loved. The 'old man' in me tells me to go sailing on other people's boats until the right boat comes along (and it won't be on craigslist)

Thanks to all.

Jason
 
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Bob in Va

Member III
Mark F is correct - the boat in the picture on craigslist is a Mk 2. It has a transom mounted rudder, outboard is off center, etc. It is NOT the '69 boat described - it is at least a '75 or later. If you go to owners and projects you can find my email address and contact me that way (my boat is a Mk 2 - "TigerEye") I know of several owners in your area who would be happy to talk to you and might be willing to take you out for a sail. I do know of one Mk 2 that is for sale down near Lake Tahoe, but there are probably others nearer to you. Ballpark for a sailable boat, with trailer and ready to go is $3k to $4k - boats with cosmetic or structural issues are less, boats with great sails and in pristine shape are more. This is a super entry level boat - plenty of quality and performance, and they are very patient with an inexperienced skipper. Best of all, if you take care of her, she's worth as much or more when you sell. But as with all females, the fittings cost more than the hull...
 
Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Bob,
What's the deal with the Tahoe boat? Is it a centerboard on a trailer boat?
Mark
 
N

nomad

Junior Member
Mark, the ad is for the boat I just looked at (Mk1) ... but the picture is of some another boat NOT the boat I looked at. (I've heard here the Mk2 has a encapsulated keel not a bolted on keel)

The current owner has had the boat for 3 months but still hasn't had it out of the marina yet. Real nice kid, but in a bit over his head. If the keel bolts aren't that bad... which they may not be, then still I think it could be viable project... but for someone else. (perhaps the kid)

The 1st e23 I looked at was in Everett, just north of Seattle. It was advertised as a 1976 Mk2 but was really a Mk1. It had been abandoned, and the marina donated it to a non-profit called the "Ancient Boat Society".

I meet the executive director who was setting up fences around the society's new ship yard. The e23 was in sad shape with solid ice in the bilge and cracks on the underside of deck along the bulkheads... but Chris, the director, was great charcter and ended up shooting the shit with him for 45min out in the cold. He was starting the shipyard for long term wooden boat projects. (no shortage of those) He is restoring a 70+ year old 42 foot wooden 'Cannal Cruiser' and had several other boats from the 40's and 50's as well as other 'donor' boats for sale

The Ancient Boat Society seems to take a very differnt, somewhat Buddist view of boat projects.... the goal of the project being the process of the project itself. The 'project' acting as a nexus for community and the sharing of knowlege, tools and labor. The shipyard was convientenly located behind an Irish Pub.

Jason
 
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Mark F

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Jason,

Yes I was thinking about the photos you provided and that they were definitely of a Mk1, keel bolts and bulkhead on the starboard side.

The Ancient Boat Society sounds like an interesting group. I like the process of boat projects myself. I think it’s the ability to get something done in a relatively short time period (I am talking about an E23 here!)

Mark
 
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