E-38 Modify masthead for spinnaker

[Jean Moran]

We need to modify the masthead to fly a spinnaker. There are three existing jib halyards: one dedicated to the roller furling, one to the port, and one to the strbd. We are planning to pull the mast and are considering if we should attach some kind of vale with a block outside of everything to accomodate a spinnaker. I am attaching a figure of the existing masthead. Has anyone worked this out already?

 

[Loren Beach]

You have a kinda-sorta similar Kenyon (?) masthead fitting as my '88 Olson. On mine the jib halyard is under the headstay and there is an external polished SS "cage" there to guide it and the port and starboard spinn halyards into their respective sheaves. Works fine until you jibe the chute and then have the halyard over the headstay...


Best,
Loren in Portland

 

[u079721]

This same issue was one of the unresolved tasks on my do-to list. I contacted Rig Right (I think....) and asked for help, and what they suggested was a metal plate that screwed onto the top of the mast. The front of the plate had an overhang with a bail (U bolt) to hang a spinnaker block.

It really wouldn't be very hard to make one of these on your own, or at least make a template so that a machine shop could cut one out for you from 1/4" or perhaps 3/8" aluminum. You could then drill holes in front for a sturdy U bolt to act as a bail. You of course have to remount everything on top of the mast, but shouldn't be too bad. I wouldn't want to try this with the stick up though!

 

[Seth]

No need to change a thing

Jean and Steve & Loren,

The photo is a perfect shot of the classic tri halyard masthead, in which you have a center halyard dedicated for headsails, and 2 "universal",aka "wing" halyards, which are INTENDED as the spinnaker halyards or secondary genoa/staysail/ blooper,etc. halyards.

In a racing scenario, it goes like this: You begin sailing upwind on the center halyard. If you need to change headsails, you use the wing halyard that will make for the easiest change based on whether you are doing a straight line or tack change, or if you anticipate needing one of the wing halyards for the first spinnaker hoist, use the one you don't plan on using for the kite. If you get to the windward mark (or the point where a kite is the sail to use) and have not changed headsails, you can use whichever wing halyard makes sense-usually the halyard which is on the same side the the side you will be setting the kite from. If you have made a headsail change to one of the wing halyards, you will have to use whichever wing hal. is still free. If the free wing hal is on the leeward side (where you will set the kite from), fine. If the only wing halyard free is on the windward (high) side, just bring it around the front of the headstay and connect it to the kite. You will be hoisting it as it rides up and over the chafe cage, but that is why the chafe cage looks like this-it is meant for it.

Anyway, I could get into the whole issue of how to plan which spin halyard to use in different situations, but the point here is that these ARE spinny halyards(and secondary genny halyards at the same time), the masthead cage is appropriate for use in "real" conditions, and there is no need for any other bale or fittings up there to have a workable spinn halyard..

For you guys with furlers (which should always be set from the center halyard), you essentially have a spare universal halyard on each side. You can use either one of these for a spinnaker, heavy air headsail, drifter, or whatever.

So-the center halyard is only for genoas, jibs or staysails-but NOT spinnakers of any sort(because it is under the headstay, you can't very well gybe a spinnaker from this halyard, right? At least not without wrapping it pretty badly around the headstay. This halyard is limited to sails set on centerline that remain below the headstay. The "wing" or "universal" halyards can be used for any of these. Genny, jib, staysail, and all types of kites as well.This set up, when managed by your "bow professional", allows you to to change sails back and forth, upwind or down, and always have one (one wing or centerline) halyard free for the next leg. Very efficient without wasting space, rope, or weight as you would with a 4 halyard set up like in the old days (with 2 genny and 2 spinny halyards)...

Cheers,
S

Hope this helps, guys!

 

[Chris Miller]

We use that set-up...

And it works great. It's nice to have the option to launch on either side, although we usually port launch out of habit. No issues gybing, no worries about cranes or any of that stuff, it works out great. The halyard doesn't ever have any issues gybing... you can even douse it crossed, but don't forget to run your halyard back around.
I'd spend the money you had budgeted for that project on nice sheets and a pair of ratchet blocks , since you're set to go!
My wife is a bow cowboy on the race course, but drives on our boat- which makes me the resident bow monkey--- and if I can make it work up there, anybody can!
Chris

 

[u079721]

Well, I won't argue with Seth on sail handling issues.

BUT, a friend's Tartan has a single spinnaker halyard on a bail outside of the forestay, and it is darn convenient to use when tacking downwind with a cruising chute.

How do you tack the chute with a setup like the one shown?

 

[Loren Beach]

So many halyards, so little time

it's not like anyone asked about spare halyards and furlers, but --
we have found out the hard way that after adding the furler we could no longer store the spinn halyards on either side of the bow pulpit (which we had done on the prior boat for a decade...).
The genny tries to wrap 'em in when rolling up.

Since storing them along side the spar is bad for reasons ranging from noise to chafe, we have one on either side of the cabin side, about a foot forward from the chainplate, clipped to a slider on the front of the forward jib track. The topping lift also gets clipped to one of these.

Remember, if "yachting" was easy, just anyone could do it!

Cheers,
Loren

 

[stbdtack]

Like Seth said I havent had any problems with this setup. Only thing I did was to sand and polish/wax the chafe guard to make sure it was smooth without any burrs or sharp edges.
A bail set-up needs to be installed correctly as the loads can be substantial. I think the Ericson set-up is simple and very robust. I recently saw an ex Americas Cup boat on the hard over in Sausalito with the rig down. It had the same set-up for the spinn halyards with a SS chafe guard at the sheave box exit.

 

[Seth]

Uhh.....

Great idea and good observation Loren!

Steve,

The set up you saw on the Tartan is typical when the spinnaker halyard is an afterthought or not part of the orignal mast design, although on the old style 4 halyard masts the 2 spinny halyards were often hung from bales out in front of and above the headstay, but it does not really matter.

For the modern (better) type boats with the 3 halyard set up you just use the wing halyards-when you gybe, the halyard rides over the front of the cage-that is why it designed with rounded edges-and it is above the headstay anyway-no problem. You can take it down on either side. If you do your take down after the first gybe, then the port wing halyard (for example) will be on the starboard sie after the take down. To "clean up" just walk the end of the halyard around the headstay at the bow, and back to wherever you normally secure it.

This is not a new thing-it has been proven on offshore racing boats for more than 25 years (since the tri halyard masthead came into prominence).

Works great! Did this answer you?

S

 

[u079721]

Hmmmm.......well I understand it now.....BUT, having taken classes from Brion Toss on rigging, and being taught that all leads should be fair, it sort of amazes me that by design the spinny halyard wraps around the cage after a tack. Just seems like a poor design somehow - with the potential for all that chafe - compared with the out front blocks that provide a fair lead in all directions.

Then again, I've never raced, or worked the foredeck, so what do I know? My 38 was not set up for spinnaker work at all, with just two upper/lower halyards underneath the forstay. So in my case I couldn't have jibed the cruising chute anyway.

 

[Loren Beach]

Agreed: A Fair Lead is a Good Thing

If this horse is not yet deceased...
Note that with the "other" masthead spinnaker halyard configuration of a crane (or "chickenhead" and a swivle block, you then have a halyard tail that chafes on the headstay as it goes down, and if it is internal it goes into an entry slot just below the masthead and to one side (or both sides in case of port and starboard cranes) and thence out through another slot well above the gooseneck. Lots of places there for friction and a not-so-fair lead.

For the sake of discussion, one of the best spinnaker leads I have seen was on a fractional rig -- swivle block just above the headstay attachment, and then from there the halyard went up (!) about a foot or so to a 180 degree turning block and down the inside of the mast. No matter which jibe, no unfair lead.

Isn't armchair sailing fun!?


"Be careful out there," as the police sargent on TV used to say...

Loren

 

[Rocinante33]

Masthead

Jean,
Thanks to you & all the usual suspects for this very fine thread! Seth, Loren, Steve & Chris added comments that are, as usual, illuminating to me.
I particular, thanks for getting up there & taking that fine picture of your masthead. One small comment about the design came to me when looking at your shot. There is a slot-head screw right where the halyard would slide across as it wraps over to port on a gybe. I think that slot-head could chafe the halyard, despite all those nice rounded smooth edges that Seth described so well in talking about the design. Since you plan on dropping the mast, why don't you replace that screw with a smoother head - maybe an allen head cap screw?
Just a thought,
Keith
E-33
Rocinante

 

[Seth]

Steve, Let's work this through. These upper halyards does not wrap around anything in a tack-OR a gybe (I may not have been very clear on this). Remember (and this may also address Keith's concerns) that when flying a spinnaker the halyard does not hang down as it would with a genoa, or other headsail, but because of the very light nylon material used for kites, the halyard extends straight out or even slightly UP from these upper sheaves-Keith-this is why those screws do not pose a real chafing problem-at least when the halyard is under load (but I would replace that screw with a countersunk screw anyway!).

If you set a kite on the port side, and use the port wing halyard, it is straight out until you gybe, and the lead is totally clean and fair. After a gybe, it is NOT wrapped around the headsaty (I misspoke-:nerd: ), but "gently" lays accross the TOP rounded edge of the cage-no chafe. When you dowse with the halyard on the opposite side it rubs on the cage a little-but I can promise you these are not halyard eaters at all-a little rubbing every now and then won't do any harm since it is rubbing on smooth parts..

The reality is that this has proven to be an advantage over blocks out on a bale for these reasons: weight aloft, windage, simplicity and cost.

The freestanding swivel Loren has seen on some frac boats is nice when you have the luxury of lots of mast above the hounds, and the One Design rules (where this is most often seen) allow for a bigger SL on the kite than the IG measurement most boats use as the basis. It is also seen when the boat was not offered with ANY spinnaker gear and is a reasonable aftermarket mod for a frac rigged cruiser.

BTW-Steve said his 38 was not sold with any spin gear and did not have this set up..Are you sure? During my time there, when a 38 was sold without spinny gear, the masthead was always the same, just that we did not supply the actual halyards-the sheaves were always set up like this, but left empty or with a messenger line run through them. Sometimes dealers would (after recieving the boat)-elect not to run the genny halyard and place 2 halyards (one on eack wing/universal sheave). I thhink this may be what you are seeing. My point is I would be very surprised to hear that your masthead has anything under the headstay than the centerline halyard. If your masthead looks different from this, please take photo of draw it for us-unless this was a major change at PSC, I think you have the same masthead unit, but maybe all the sheaves are not being used.

Finally I am not really defending the Ericson cage per se-just making the point that this configuration became the norm for performance oriented boats because of the operational, and cost/weight advantages it offers-not because it has any limitations or was a compromise in any way. I have crossed oceans with this rig, and as long as you excercise the halyards (all of them-this is not something required only by the tri-halyard setup) each day, the halyards will not have any unusual chafe problems....The teaser has been placed!!

\Hope this helps-sorry for the confusion. Gotta go-first race of the season today!!

Seth

 

[Jean Moran]

What happens to the Dousing Sock?

Re: "Classic Tri Halyard Masthead"
Thanks for all of the comments. We will go out in San Francisco Bay and try it (remember that San Francisco Bay has the fog effect of 15 - 20 Knots of breeze throughout the summer). It will be about a month before we have replaced all of our rigging and will be back out sailing, but I will let you know how it goes.

Re: picitures up the mast.
I made a 3:1 block and tackle to pull myself up the mast and have gone up about eight times this last year as we change out the standing and running rigging, added isolators for an antenna backstay, etc. I often go up with a camera to take pictures of things before we take them apart.

An additional question:
Our asymetrical spinnaker comes with a dousing sock. What will happen to all this stuff up at the masthead?

Thanks again for all of the comments. Jean

 

[Seth]

Dousing sock

The sock has shackle at the top to which the halyard attaches, and the top of the sail is fixed inside and at the top of the sock, so you hoist the whole thing with the sock pulled down over the sail. The sock has its' own internal halyard to rasie the sock up and over the sail. When sailing, the sock just sits on top of the sail at the masthead. No problem!!

Let us know how things go!

S

 

[u079721]

BTW-Steve said his 38 was not sold with any spin gear and did not have this set up..Are you sure? During my time there, when a 38 was sold without spinny gear, the masthead was always the same, just that we did not supply the actual halyards-the sheaves were always set up like this, but left empty or with a messenger line run through them. Sometimes dealers would (after recieving the boat)-elect not to run the genny halyard and place 2 halyards (one on eack wing/universal sheave). I thhink this may be what you are seeing. My point is I would be very surprised to hear that your masthead has anything under the headstay than the centerline halyard. If your masthead looks different from this, please take photo of draw it for us-unless this was a major change at PSC, I think you have the same masthead unit, but maybe all the sheaves are not being used. Seth

Well that certainly makes the whole thing more clear, and now I appreciate how the system is designed to work.

As for my 38, well I no longer own it, so I can't take a picture. And I have to admit that while I went up the mast many times, and pulled the stick each fall, I don't remember the exact lay out as well as I thought. But my masthead did not look like the one in the picture, at least not exactly. Under the forestay I had two centerline halyards, one above the other. There might have been two empty sheaves on either side higher up, but I don't recall.

Thanks for the lesson.

 

[Seth]

Well, then

Hi Steve,

If this is the case, then I must stand corrected-although I have seen something like one halyard under the headsaty and one just above, so that BOTH can function as headsail halyards, but only the upper could serve as a kite halyard-but I never was wintess to either of these setups during my time in E-land, and if it is as you report, then you are correct in saying there is no provision for spinnaker halyards...

In these cases (I still am surprised at this), you WOULD have to either install at least one sheave just above the headstay or SLIGHTLY above and off to one side. Or, as has been suggested here, you could cut an exit slot somewhere in the general area for the halyard to exit the mast, go up to a bale attached to some kind of padeye or anchor at the very top to which a swivel block will attach, and the halyard run through this block.

This setup (or something close to it) could also indicate a switch of mast vendors-maybe Z spars or Charleston Spars....

Sorry if I jumped the gun!

S