Do I have a leaking joint?

hcpookie

Member III
I need to pick your collective brains about an apparent leak issue on my E27. I say "apparent" leak, because after successfully caulking my windows, I noticed water is seeping from the joint in the cabin between the deck and hull, directly inside the rub rail. During my window repair, I looked very closely and the inner/outer cabin shells are hollow in the vertical section around the windows. This let me to assume the water was from the windows.

It could be that water is seeping along this from somewhere and dripping out at the point where gravity makes it collect, where capillary action pulls it, or both. Therefore, I would not be surprised if the rub rail is letting water leak in, but I don't know enough about a hull design to know if there is even an indirect path from the rub rail to the inner joint.

Something that worries me is the teak hand rails on both sides are in bad enough shape to leak water into the cabin (this is where some the bolts are exposed to the cabin - apparently a bad repair from years ago when someone cut into the cabin roof to access the hand rail anchors). I mention this to suggest that maybe, if it is possible, the water is coming from the cabin-mounted hardware such as winches, cheek blocks, etc.

If cabin-mounted hardware is the fault, then perhaps the slow leak in the mast section is accumulating, then slowly seeping down to the joint? I know the mast *slowly* seeps water since the wood support swells after a good rain. So there's another suspect in the lineup.

After all this speculation, the most logical assumption I can think of is that years of leaking windows have caused water to seep into this area, which is slowly leaking back out. Would this be logical, or would that kind of trapped water have already leaked back out?

I'm sorry if these questions seem , but my grasp of hull design is rather challenged. My goal is to isolate if this water is bad (all water inside is bad, isn't it???) and possible solutions to identify the source.

TIA,
- Jerry
 
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Art Mullinax

Member III
Rub Rail

Several years ago I started looking for mysterious leaks on my E29. When built, the rubrail was not through bolted. It was installed using large (1/4") sheet metal screws in the joint between the hull and deck. I took the rub rail off which was a mistake (hadn't put it back on yet). What I should have done is remove each screw, caulked it, put it back on, then to the next one and repeat.
Art M.
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
One possibility is that water is getting into the core from improperly isolated deck hardware, and the water is migrating through the deck core, and finding a way out by your hull-deck joint. Any hollow thudding on deck? Springy deck areas?
 

hcpookie

Member III
Hrm... I am 99% sure no springy deck area. Not sure on the thudding - something to check... I would think "no" because it was just surveyed a few months ago, but you never can tell. I'll look it over next weekend.
 

Emerald

Moderator
Jerry,


A couple thoughts


1) You shouldn't be taking any water down the mast. Your boat has a stand pipe in the shoe of the mast to prevent this from happening. Check here to see what I did:


http://home.comcast.net/~ericson-yachts/standpipe/standpipe.html


after doing this, I never saw water around the mast again, or signs of the compression post getting wet from above


2) Put a tarp over the cabin top to cover the handrails and the port lights and wait for a good hard rain and see if it still happens. I never had the leaking issues you describe, but always kept a tarp on her. If you stop leaking with the tarp, I'd look at the handrails. I never touched them, and they were on the "todo" list. If you still leak with the tarp, I would suggest rebeding the stanchions. They are original to the best of my knowledge, and should be rebeded at some point regardless. Also check where the chainplates come through the deck for the shrouds.

3) Go sailing while it's still possible and enjoy the boat - she's solid without any real problems. AKA, you can always make a problem if you look hard enough with a 30 year old boat. Given her age some maintainence is necessary, but there is nothing inherintly wrong with her, and her decks and cabin top are in good shape and do not suffer from delamination. Two surveyors in the past 2 years have now confirmed this (and I know my surveyor used a moisture meter). You really don't need to be worrying yourself about rotten core etc. If you have any moisture issues, they are going to be very localized around a running light or some other piece of hardware.


Good luck, and don't forget to go sailing.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 
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Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
rubrail leak

You might have leaks through the rubrail bolts. I did big time on my 1968 E23-1. I tried sealing from inside, didn’t work. Ended up removing the rubrail and sanded/grinded/filled the flange that was hidden under the rail. Bit of a project but after filling the 8000 holes NO leaks.
 

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hcpookie

Member III
Mark, I dug up the old thread on it. Looks like it was a lot of work but looks pretty nice!

Emerald, the mast shouldn't leak but it does, albeit slowly. I saw that page. The seepage is enough to damp the wood, damp the bilge, and enough to swell the post enough to block the door. I believe the mast-to-deck joint sealant may be slowly seeping water. That should at least be an easy fix! I do not beleive it is directly related to this leak - maybe - but I doubt it.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) I will have enough time this Winter to invest TLC time into this one. The leak is small - about a cup of water during a 24-hour storm. So I'm not TOO worried about it, but I want to isolate it BEFORE it becomes a big issue.

Deck hardware looks like the primary suspect to me - I believe that further investigation will be warranted only after those suspect items are re-bedded. Those handrails a just begging to be maintained!
 

Emerald

Moderator
Hi,

Check the weep holes port and starboard in the base of the mast. Even if they seem OK, you may want to try enlarging them one size. I drilled them on the small side, and it's possible that with a little dirt added, surface tension is keeping them from flowing freely. However, even if the weep holes aren't flowing, about the only way the standpipe is leaking water is from overflowing, which is highly unlikely given the fact that the standpipe is higher than the sides of the shoe (shoe should just overflow and the water run out between the mast and shoe, not down the standpipe). Another possibility is that water is working under the shoe from the cabin top. A nice bead of an appropriate marine grade sealer like the UV resistant 3M 4000 run around the base of the mast should seal this joint and end the problem if it is the source. I would highly recommend doing this. Of note, when I had the mast down, we did attempt to remove the shoe to rebed it, and the screws holding it in place were frozen to the point that instead of torqueing them off and creating problems, I sealed them with a generous dose of 3M 4200. The epoxy used on the stand pipe is a special high strength high flex capable epoxy that should not allow the standpipe to leak or break at the base. If you want to check the spec, it is 3M ScotchWeld 2216 B/A gray.


Hope this helps track down the source of the leak.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 

hcpookie

Member III
My thoughts exactly! 4000 around the joint and call it done. Good idea on the weep holes.

If it warms up this weekend I'll do it then, otherwise it will be a Thanksgiving project. Along with the handrails.
 

Joe Benedict

Member II
Weep Hole Size

... and what would the recommended weep hole size be? This hasn't been a problem (the mast has an internal standpipe that the wires got through) but since the mast is down to install a new wind speed/direction meter I might as well be a little proactive.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
"Holes!"

Judging by the machined-out slots in the side of my Kenyon spar, you could drill a half inch dia. hole without weakening the extrusion...
I have seen wiring access openings near the base of spars on other boats that were about an inch by three inches.
And, finally, the drilled out "notch" in the base of our mast that allows the rain water to drain into the bilge (thru-step spar) is about 3/8 inch.

Loren

:rolleyes:
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
There Bee a pun here, somewhere...

Hey, HC,
I actually used to have a sailing partner in our OD racing days that always referred to being out in front and going fast as "buzzin' right along"....

:)

E-Yup, he really did say that!

Loren
 

Emerald

Moderator
Joe Benedict said:
... and what would the recommended weep hole size be? This hasn't been a problem (the mast has an internal standpipe that the wires got through) but since the mast is down to install a new wind speed/direction meter I might as well be a little proactive.


Hi Joe,


I am not going to pretend to be an engineering expert with an exact formula, but from just general digging around/experience, a minimum size is apt to be around 3/16 - 1/4 inch. BTW, I actually drilled the weep holes after the mast was restepped, but while you've got the mast down, make sure your wires do a loop so that water doesn't run down them and through the standpipe.


-David
Independence 31
Emerald
 
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Joe Benedict

Member II
Dave:

Thanks! Freshwater is a little bit kinder than salt but eventually the same issues emerge and it really doesn't matter when the temperature dips below zero.
 
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