Tom Metzger
Sustaining Partner
A little cheaper than Loren's suggestion:
https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-right-angle-screwdriver-92630.html
chainplate repair
- Thread starter Hanktoo
- Start date
it's out
the good news, deck core appears solid, the bad news, the bulkhead where chainplate attaches is worse than I thought. The chainplate itself does not show any of the dreaded corrosion, i left it dirty as it came out for the picture. The second picture is my question, the top of the chainplate where the stays attach is fattened up with another welded piece. Is this normal? I want to get a new one made and want to be sure that's what's needed.
the good news, deck core appears solid, the bad news, the bulkhead where chainplate attaches is worse than I thought. The chainplate itself does not show any of the dreaded corrosion, i left it dirty as it came out for the picture. The second picture is my question, the top of the chainplate where the stays attach is fattened up with another welded piece. Is this normal? I want to get a new one made and want to be sure that's what's needed.
well after cleaning off some of the gunk I see what may be the beginning of a crack on the backside? I found an old post by Phil McFarlane that said on 35-2 there was an extra plate welded on the top of the chainplate, which is exactly what I have, so that seems correct. Phil's fix was to make new ones double thick the whole length, which sounds like the plan. I also wonder if the bend in the second pic is planned or if my chainplate bent under load? Unless someone can point me otherwise I will have them made with no bend?
kapnkd
kapnkd
Our E-32 II chainplates were straight without the doubling at the top. We ordered all new plates from Garhauer who water jet cut them to avoid heat on the metal which can reduce the metal’s strength. His prices are good and his workmanship is first rate. The plates came looking like mirror chrome - we almost didn’t cover them back up.
It would be worth a call to them and see if they can’t calculate the stress loads for you plus maybe just use a slightly thicker stock (??).
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kapnkd
kapnkd
Couple more things for you to consider. We also had Garhauer cut new oversized chain plate deck covers out of 1/8” stock SS. We felt the old ones were too small and thin allowing water to leak into the holes for the plates.
After last year with lots of rain - the new plates, covers and all have not leaked a drop.
BTW, we oversized all through deck cutouts, resin filled them and redrilled them so water cannot permeate the deck coring. We’re doing everything we can to beat “Murphy” this time around.
Vagabond39
Member III
J. W. Chapman MFG. CO.
I first came across the Chapman 20 tooth rachet offset tools when working at New York Naval Shipyard in the 50's. Bought their NO. 1316 set. Recently sheared an allen bit. Not too shabby for a60 year old tool.
https://chapmanmfg.com/
Another good one is the Eifel geared plier wrench. But, I haven't seen those for sale since Montgomery Ward went belly up.
New Alligator wrenches are also hard to come by.
But, so much for nostagia!<label for="rb_iconid_8">
</label>
I first came across the Chapman 20 tooth rachet offset tools when working at New York Naval Shipyard in the 50's. Bought their NO. 1316 set. Recently sheared an allen bit. Not too shabby for a60 year old tool.
https://chapmanmfg.com/
Another good one is the Eifel geared plier wrench. But, I haven't seen those for sale since Montgomery Ward went belly up.
New Alligator wrenches are also hard to come by.
But, so much for nostagia!<label for="rb_iconid_8">
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread - the heading seems appropriate to my situation too (checking chainplates for structural integrity)
- someone can move my post to a more appropriate thread if necessary.
I did a thorough inspection of my E32-3 standing rigging on the weekend. Apart from discovering one cotter pin missing and another about to slip out (not bent at all!) at the deck toggles, I noticed that the pair of deck rings for the upper and intermediate stays were both 'pulling up' on the deck a little on the stbd side. And, there were what looked like 'old' cracks in the gelcoat radiating out from these rings. It looked like the deck is raised about 3/8" above the level of the surrounding deck. The other side deck rings don't show this issue.
I went below to investigate the chainplates. There's a ss rod leading from under the pair of deck rings and threaded into horizontal rod of aluminum (~1+ " thick). The aluminum rod is inserted through the cabin shell and into a very heavily fiberglassed area. There's no evidence of damage in that area. There's a 'flat' in the ss rod, obviously to adjust the downward pull that it exerts on the pair of deck rings to which the side stays are attached.
My questions:
1) what exactly should I be looking for in the chainplate area (big thick mass of fiberglass) to assess possible structural problems?, and
2) how is the ss rod attached to the underside of the deck rings? - is it something like a flat 'head' that's free to rotate in a cup of some sort when the rod is tightened from below?
- someone can move my post to a more appropriate thread if necessary.
I did a thorough inspection of my E32-3 standing rigging on the weekend. Apart from discovering one cotter pin missing and another about to slip out (not bent at all!) at the deck toggles, I noticed that the pair of deck rings for the upper and intermediate stays were both 'pulling up' on the deck a little on the stbd side. And, there were what looked like 'old' cracks in the gelcoat radiating out from these rings. It looked like the deck is raised about 3/8" above the level of the surrounding deck. The other side deck rings don't show this issue.
I went below to investigate the chainplates. There's a ss rod leading from under the pair of deck rings and threaded into horizontal rod of aluminum (~1+ " thick). The aluminum rod is inserted through the cabin shell and into a very heavily fiberglassed area. There's no evidence of damage in that area. There's a 'flat' in the ss rod, obviously to adjust the downward pull that it exerts on the pair of deck rings to which the side stays are attached.
My questions:
1) what exactly should I be looking for in the chainplate area (big thick mass of fiberglass) to assess possible structural problems?, and
2) how is the ss rod attached to the underside of the deck rings? - is it something like a flat 'head' that's free to rotate in a cup of some sort when the rod is tightened from below?
Attachments
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E32-3 stbd shroud deck rings.JPG
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Having Garhauer make new ones. The original are 3/16 and doubled to 3/8 at the top. I went with 1/4 stock and they will weld stainless washers around the clevis pin holes to thicken that up. The way the chainplate comes down threw the slot, there is a notch in the cabin top where the bulkhead sits in, I didn't think i could get more than 1/4 through there. Most of the bulkhead is solid, so I have a lot to attach to. I took off the wood paneling along the hull so I could feather out the fiberglass and epoxy.
@Hanktoo... this is very interesting, and timely. My chainplate (35-2) is exactly the same... with the same double thickness tab welded on at the top and the same 4-5 degree bend. The bend in mine is right at the junction of the two thicknesses which my machine shop guy and I figured was the weakest point and bent as the result of an out-of-true loading of the chainplate from the stays. So now I wonder if this is a design kind of thing. I have been wracking my brains trying to figure out how to get a true loading from the stays down through the chainplate... maybe fixing the bottom of the chainplate slightly away from the bulkhead with spacers/washers to get the angles of pull to correspond. Sure would be nice to know : | Am I overthinking this..?!?
(I will definitely go with the double thickness throughout the entire chainplate... the difference is pennies. Also, from memory the chainplate is 20" long... I think there is room to extend it down further so will make it 24" or so to grab more bulkhead)
(I will definitely go with the double thickness throughout the entire chainplate... the difference is pennies. Also, from memory the chainplate is 20" long... I think there is room to extend it down further so will make it 24" or so to grab more bulkhead)
+1 (maybe 2) on the Chapman sets. I have had a set with my rifle-bag (!) for many years. Bought a second set for the boat. Very handy.
Bruce
Your #2 guess is right.
Those large ss eye's are threaded thru a plate of aluminum on the underside.
Under the deck and above the headliner trim is a thick aluminum plate with hole and a recess on top. The top of the Navtec ss rod you are looking at--- has a head forged on it's top end. It is meant to rotate when you use a wrench on those 'flats' to turn it and thread it up or down in the round aluminum bar that is glassed in heavily behind the settees.
Only hitch in this scheme is that IF a leak around the shroud base is ignored water will get into the area of the interface with the ss rod head. This will corrode the aluminum. If you expose this for inspection and contemplation, put some MacLube or similar into that area where the metals meet.
Have someone sight along the deck while you turn the rod downwards until the deck is again level. It might be good to slack off the shroud tension a bit to make the rod turning go easier.
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garryh watch the thickness, i wanted to go thicker all the way too but the bulkhead fits into a slot on the cabin top, and the chainplated needs to slide down that same slot next to it. It is a tight fit. Maybe if you angle it like you contemplate it may work but be conscious of the space there.
The picture is rotated so the left side is actually the top, but you can clearly see the bulkhead in the slot, the chainplate needs to fit down there from above and there is no wiggle room.
The picture is rotated so the left side is actually the top, but you can clearly see the bulkhead in the slot, the chainplate needs to fit down there from above and there is no wiggle room.
kapnkd
kapnkd
THAT is a very good point! ...Our replacement chain plates were the same thickness as the originals and as such we still had a heck of a time fitting them into place alongside the bulkhead.
thanks for the head's up on that Hank... I will check this out. I cannot picture it without being there and may be a few weeks before I can get back to the boat. I am sure it will be quite soupy by then ; | I am wondering as I sit here if the groove thickness cannot be modified (as in 1\8" filed away?) for the few inches it takes to position the slightly wider chainplate..?
Also still wondering if that bend at the top of the chainplate is a design thing or a wear thing due an unfair loading. Strange that both of our chainplates have that bend.
Also still wondering if that bend at the top of the chainplate is a design thing or a wear thing due an unfair loading. Strange that both of our chainplates have that bend.
kapnkd
kapnkd
Just curious.
Were your chain plates mounted on the main salon side of the bulkhead or in the head and hanging locker. (Ours on the E32-II were on the main salon side and had no bend.) Just wondering IF yours may have been inadvertently mounted on the opposite side by an unknowing/new worker?? ...Then a BIG IF - Would that slight difference of angle be enough to cause the loads to change and put that slight bend in them you had??
-kerry
good point kerry, but then both are mounted on the salon side of the bulkhead which makes sense? for accessibilty. From other threads here, it seems the salon side is the norm. But this mystery deepens here... I just pulled out my chainpate and noticed the the 'bend is in the opposite direction ie towards the stern. Hanktoo... yours is bent towards the bow it seems. How can two boats from the same moulds have this (quite large) difference in alignment of chain plates and mast\stays..? The process of checking this alignment is way beyond me... especially with mast down. This is a conundrum for sure.
kapnkd
kapnkd
Whew!! ...Conundrum is an understatement!
I've got some sailing friends as well as my son who are engineers and will ask them what they think. I also think Bruce King's son is a contact for this site. It would be REALLY interesting to get ALL their perspectives on what the heck and why it happened.
BTW - Really LIKE the name of your Ericson!
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ChapmanMFG
New Member
Thanks!
Hi, thanks so much for recommending our tools! We're a small company (15 of us) so customer referrals make up the majority of our new customers as we do not have a large marketing budget. The US Navy has been buying our tools since 1953 (I have a purchase order for the Nautilus Sub hanging on the wall) but I'm not aware of many customers who use our tools on their personal vessels. Is there anything you need that we don't make? Any input is appreciated- thanks!
Joel - Chapman MFG
I first came across the Chapman 20 tooth rachet offset tools when working at New York Naval Shipyard in the 50's. Bought their NO. 1316 set. Recently sheared an allen bit. Not too shabby for a60 year old tool.
https://chapmanmfg.com/
Another good one is the Eifel geared plier wrench. But, I haven't seen those for sale since Montgomery Ward went belly up.
New Alligator wrenches are also hard to come by.
But, so much for nostagia!<label for="rb_iconid_8"></label>
Hi, thanks so much for recommending our tools! We're a small company (15 of us) so customer referrals make up the majority of our new customers as we do not have a large marketing budget. The US Navy has been buying our tools since 1953 (I have a purchase order for the Nautilus Sub hanging on the wall) but I'm not aware of many customers who use our tools on their personal vessels. Is there anything you need that we don't make? Any input is appreciated- thanks!
Joel - Chapman MFG
tenders
Innocent Bystander
I had no idea you were still around! Chapman should take out a small ad in the back of Good Old Boat magazine with a picture of your little ratchet set, and text along the following lines:
Chapman Midget 1/4” Ratchet
Used on good old ships of the US Navy since 1953
Now available for your good old boat
The perfect handyman gift
Rebrand your 9600 kit as “The Yachtsman” and link directly to it from the ad, and see what happens. Ideally “The Yachtsman” could include an adapter to get your hex-ratchet to work with standard hex head sockets, which I guess you don’t make - a lot of boat repairs seem to involve nuts and bolts in small spaces!
Chapman Midget 1/4” Ratchet
Used on good old ships of the US Navy since 1953
Now available for your good old boat
The perfect handyman gift
Rebrand your 9600 kit as “The Yachtsman” and link directly to it from the ad, and see what happens. Ideally “The Yachtsman” could include an adapter to get your hex-ratchet to work with standard hex head sockets, which I guess you don’t make - a lot of boat repairs seem to involve nuts and bolts in small spaces!