Boat in bad shape

[Mick]

Hey all! just found the forum by luck and what a great site!

My father has a Ericson 36C that we've owned for about 15 years now. Sorry, I don't know the hull number at the moment but I know its a 1976 for those that will be curious.

Anyways, a little background, she's docked in the SF Bay Area at the moment where she's been sitting for the past 5 years since my mother was diagnosed with cancer. My mother and father were planning on cruising around the world with her however, those dreams died when my mom passed 4 years ago. Since then, my father has, as far as I can tell not done anything with her. I've gone down to the boat every few months and checked on things, made sure the bildge was pumped etc. Well, I go down there last week (after being away at least 6 months) and find a few inches of sea water above the cabin floor. NOT GOOD .

Find that the batteries are both dead. Ran and got a new battery and managed to get the bildge pump going although it appears to be stuck in the on position in automatic mode, guessing the float switch is stuck or something. Anyways.... I can't tell if this is normal water seeping in or if we have a bigger problem somewhere. I did find that just about every seacock on the boat is open... I'm kicking myself now since I apparently have never checked them before now although I can't imagine any of us would have left them open after the last time we actually sailed her.

The engine had a couple inches of water on it which really bugs me since right before my mother got sick they bought a new Yanmar diesel for it and it has only ever been ran a few times. There is a bit of rust on the lowest pulley on the front, other than that it actually doesn't look too bad. Of course I'm guessing I need to start with an engine/tranny oil change before I attempt anything else with the engine but, anything else I should be aware of?

I'm guessing ultimately the entire cabin sole will need to be ripped out and replaced, however in the short term, I'm hoping that cleaning it up, bleaching, sanding, oiling will at least make it presentable/usable until I can afford to take on such a big project.

So, my question(s) is... where do I start? I personally think the engine is the first step... if that is shot, then I'm pretty much done as I can't afford any major expenses right now. Anybody know anybody that does (cheap) work on diesels in the bay area that may be able to take a look and see about getting it running?

I am going to need to check the seacocks, a couple of them that I tried today didn't seem to want to budge and I didn't think too much force and risking breaking something without any tools or preperation for a disaster would be a good idea. I forsee a haul out being needed in the near future and probably some replacement of seacocks in addition to the knocking off of 6 years of growth and bottom paint.... anything else that I'm overlooking or should be thinking of first?

I attached some pics I took with my cell phone, first is the sight I saw when I opened the hatch last week. The rest were taken today with all the water out of it. You can see in the last one how low she was sitting in the water before I drained her.

Any suggestions are welcome as I'm completely lost. Worst case I'll end up selling her for cheap but I'm getting more and more interested in trying to save her for myself.

 

[Dave Hussey]

That is so sad. I imagine signs of delamination of any plywood cabinets, bulkheads, etc will begin to appear as things begin to dry out. As for the engine, check the oil...if there is any water in it, you might see it on the dipstick. If the water level in the cabin remained below any entry points to the engine, such as the aforementioned dipstick...it is probably OK. certainly check the oil for water intrusion. The transmission was probably submerged, so look at it's oil too. The starter and any electrical connections will begin to corrode almost instantly, from salt and should be closely checked. Check your fuel tank for water intrusion too.
Here is a story about a friend of mine who sank his jet boat and with very little effort, managed to make it all good again: he was on a lake going about 50 knotts and hit a wake from a bayliner that crossed in front of him... his jet boat went airborn momentarily, and sank. Only the tip of the bow remained above the water...enough to get a tow line on it and get it on a plane so he could bail it out. He took it home and replaced all the oil and gas and battery, and pulled out the spark plugs...when he cranked it over, water shot out of every cylinder... he fired it up...ran it for a few minutes to get it warm and did it all over again. By the third time, the engine ran great, and he says the insides of the valve covers looked like brand new, having been steam cleaned
Good Luck, and I'll be thinking good thoughts for you.

 

[Loren Beach]

Big Project!
Dry it out as quickly as you can, is my take on the problem. Change oil in engine and trans...
Check out all electrical connections, like the alternator, starter, and any of the harness that was near the water level. Bilge pumps and switches probably need replacing anyway.

Get at any wiring that is at the flooding level or below and rinse it with fresh water and then pump that out also.
Salt water is instantly corrosive, and boats built before the late 80's will not normally have tinned wiring. (Mine was built in the fall of '88, and Ericson did use Anchor brand wire but not the nowadays-common tinned version.)

I would get a box fan or two, one for over the fore hatch with the air flow upwards. The other to push air around the inside. They moisture will take a while to get rid of. Rinse off the woodwork with a fine spray of fresh water and wipe down the interior of all lower compartments. Be obsessive.
Include the bilges in this rinse and wipe down. Use soap and some bleach and then fresh water.

Many packages of Costco rags will be involved, and perhaps a case of micro-brew.

For the sake of your own need to see some progress and feel like you are getting somewhere, pressure wash the whole deck (being careful around the ports and the woodwork, of course). Then you will feel better when you walk down the dock and see her.
Same motivation for scrubbing the waterline scum off with a swivel brush....

Finally, remember that the only substantive difference between this boat and hundreds of boats listed for sale for lots of money is that you can *see* what needs working on in this boat... and you go into this with *no illusions*.

If you are employed full time and have home/family obligations, you DO need your family's support/help/encouragement. A year from now you will have an ocean-capable beautiful classic Ericson and will be spending the fall of '09 cruising it around the Bay and maybe up the Delta. In addition, you will know every nook and cranny of your boat and be able to trust your own repairs and upgrades.

Or, sell it for 10K now, where is / as is...


If you restore it, we will all advise you as best we can, given our distance away from you. Keep the pictures and commentary posted.
As Red Green sez, "We're all pulling for you!"

Loren

 

[Walt Lawrence]

Find out where the water is comiing from!!

Sad state of affairs, but definitely correctable, just takes

time, money and patience...and what a beautiful boat...a classic by anyone's definition.


I hate to be obvious, but I didn't see any mention of

finding the incursion place of the water....

I'm betting on the packing gland of the shaft...that steady

drip can add up...

I'm in Berkeley Marina nowadays as a liveaboard and I have

sometime on my hands with a certain amount of

knowledge, so let me know if I can help.

WEL

 

[Mick]

Yes the water incursion point is near the top of my list... perhaps oddly I see the engine as the priority though.. if that's a lost cause then the entire then is going to be too much for me to handle. Especially since I am thinking I really need to move her to a new harbor soon, since I just found that her current berth hasn't been paid for by my father in almost 2 years. I really don't want to get started on refurbishing her and dumping money I don't really have into her just to come down and find they have taken the boat for a lien sale or something. Trying to get my father to change ownership over to me which should protect it from them being able to lien the boat and then he can deal with reimbursing them... or being sued by them or whatever.

She's currently in Vallejo right now but I'm thinking about trying to move her to Richmond Marina Bay. That's where we had her most of the time we've owned her before my dad moved her before my mom got sick, to Vallejo so she'd be closer for him to work on.

I checked the shaft yesterday and it didn't appear to have any moisture around it now that things are drying out a bit. Just about all of the seacocks were left open at some point.. I'm guessing 4-5 years ago now... and most of the hoses seem to have some moisture coming out around where they join with the seacock although its still moist in most of the bilge so its hard to tell what may just be condensation versus a slow dripping leak.

I left the seacocks alone for now since they seemed difficult to move and I don't want to risk breaking anything right now. I bought a big thing of hose clamps today which I plan to take down there on my next day off next thursday and replace all the hose clamps and try to make sure those are all sealed up before trying to close the seacocks. Trying to locate and aquire engine oil, oil change pump, oil filter and trying to figure out what gearbox is on it so I can find out what oil I need for the gearbox in order to try to get it started next week. My other concern is the fuel that's been sitting for all these years also. Guessing that's probably not great to try running through the engine but I don't really have a way to dump all that fuel... nor can I really aford that.

Other than that, I pumped the bilge again yesterday and there was very little water down there. The pump only sputtered water out right from the start and I'm thinking most of that little water was probably just water that drained down into the bilge after pumping out last weeks flood. So it doesn't appear to be rapid water incursion, just long neglect that allowed the water to build up or so I'm hoping although I know that's probably not the case. Regardless I'll be checking her every week now while I try to sort out what I'm doing with her and trying to get her running again.

 

[sleather]

My other concern is the fuel that's been sitting for all these years also. Guessing that's probably not great to try running through the engine but I don't really have a way to dump all that fuel... nor can I really aford that.

Bring a supply of fresh fuel in a small portable container and plumb it directly into the engine fuel pump supply for the "run-up". Don't risk using the onboard supply until you can get it "polished"(there are folks that do that at the dock). Hopefully the engine and tranny will be fine. Good Luck! Hopefully you'll have some help by the time you get to the mechanicals.

 

[gareth harris]

That is a very sad story about your parents, it sounds as though they were still full of life when fate changed it all.

You should check the laws in California with regards to signing over the boat to you. I am not a lawyer, but I am a bit concerned about the subject of liens and what might prevent the boat being legally signed over. I would take a copy of the contract with the marina, and the amount of unpaid bills, to a lawyer for advice, and I would do that before pouring in any money for the reason you give.

I have had a fairly similar level of flooding in my boat, and I agree that the most expensive damage is likely to be to the engine. The rest would involve a lot of time and effort, such as rebuilding some of the interior carpentry, but not as much in the way of hard cash, particularly if you already have the tools.

The other thing to consider is the overall state of the boat, as five years of neglect is never good, although if your father did any significant work to prepare for cruising beforehand that will have helped.

Without a doubt, that could be a very nice boat again, with enough effort; if you take on the project, there is a large wealth of expertise here for you.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Mick]

As there is no lien on the boat currently a transfer of ownership should keep it safe as, once there is a new owner they can't place a lien against the property as it is no longer the property of the person that owes them the debt. However yes, if they place a lien before the ownership is transferred then we won't be able to transfer the ownership without first satisfying the lien. I'm thinking I may have shot myself in the foot by talking to the dock manager and offering to start making the monthly dock payment to keep things from getting worse and prevent them from liening the boat however they said they want it paid off in 3-6 months which would make it a monthly payment of $1400 - $2200 a month which there is no way I or my father could do. So now that I've brought it to their attention I'm worried they're going to start working on the lien process before I can get the ownership changed over.

Ordered a repair and maintenance manual for the engine yesterday and will be aquiring the oil filter and engine and transmission oil (as soon as I figure out what I need for it) this week and hopefully will be going down to her on Thursday with a gerry can of fresh diesel and trying to get the fluids changed and see about firing it up. If that goes smoothly, which nothing ever does, then hopefully I'll see about having the old fuel "polished" although I'm dreading finding out how much that's going to cost... since I don't have money I'm looking around for other options although I don't see much right now.

 

[Guy Stevens]

Documented?

I wrote this at the same time Mick was writing what he had done already. However I have left it as is with this note.

The boat appears from the lack of CA numbers on the bow to be documented. Now I am not a lawyer:

The marina can Sue the boat, not just the boats owner. The boat can be sued, and then becomes the property of the marina, which they then sell to cover the amount due them, with any remaining monies, less expenses that the marina charges to conduct the sale of the boat being returned to the previous owner of the boat.

A quick guess says that the amount owed to the marina is probably about $6,000 possibly more with interest on unpaid bills, and fees for late payment. The question becomes how much can you pay the marina? As much as I don't like marina owners, they did provide a service to your father, and to the boat, and they deserve to get paid for it.

Your best bet is to go in and talk to them. They know that if they auction it, which I am sure they are already thinking of doing, that they will be lucky to get their money out of the boat. It also takes quite a bit of paperwork to do, and that is further time spent by the staff that must be paid.

I have seen in a number of occasions the marina take 1/2 of what they are due, and to release the boat to a new owner. (Sinking uninsured boats at their docks are one of a marina's worst nightmares). Provided that the new owner remove the vessel from the property immediately.

However in all cases that I have been party to, the new owner was not related to the old owner. So that might be an issue for them.

They have legal recourse against your father, and perhaps more importantly to you, against the boat itself.

The laws governing documented vessels are set up specifically to not allow interest in the boat to be transferred to another entity with the purpose to defraud others of the money rightly due them, which were incurred by or through the vessel.

Go talk to the marina staff, before you get a lawyer, ask what it is that they can do. Don't offer to do anything ask them what the minimum payment they would take to release all interest in the boat. If you feel that you are not going to be able to pay that amount then you can try and get an attorney to assist you, but this generally does nothing but cause the boat to be auctioned off faster. (The marina does not want to deal with attorneys, they want money from renters.)


Another thing to note is that if you remove the vessel from the marina to avoid paying what is owed them, you could be arrested for fraud.... Not something that generally works out well.

Sort out the legal ramifications, find out what deal you can swing with the marina, we would all hate to see you posting from prison... The sailing there isn't very good.

Guy

 

[Mick]

Interesting, and you are correct, it is a documented vessel. However I do have to disagree with you regarding some aspects of civil law that would apply to this situation. You are correct, documented vessels (and most other property laws in the US) are designed to not absolve a lien on property by transferring ownership. The purpose of a lien is to enforce/ensure that the debt that the lien is placed to secure is satisfied before a transfer of ownership can be made of the property.

However, a lien can not be placed against property that is no longer the property of the person that owes the debt. For example with a house, a contractor may place a contractor's lien against the property for unpaid work. However, if the owner of the property sells the house before the contractor places the lien on the property, the lien will not be able to be placed on the property as, the new owner has no obligation to the debt of the previous owner. Likewise is the same with boats/cars and most other titled property in the US. If there is a lien, then that lien must be satisfied prior to the ownership transfer. It wouldn't be very fair to the new owner of a house to live in it for 15 years and then go to sell it and find there was a lien placed against his property after he bought it due to the prior owner not satisfying a debt.

The debt is my father's responsibility not mine. I have made attempts to take over and start paying the monthly payment in order to keep it from getting any worse while we both work on getting my father to work on the outstanding balance. I also told them that I'll even try to satisfy the debt with larger payments when I could afford it. However right now I'm struggling with my own bills (wife is a real estate agent and her essentially losing all of her income during this crappy housing market is not helping us). With my wife being a real estate agent though it does give the opportunity for large paychecks when she does sell something that we would be able to pay occasional large chunks of the debt to the marina to satisfy the debt for my father. Regardless though, the dock manager didn't seem to want to make any concessions or even deal with me at all on the issue. I'll try to reapproach the issue with him next week but right now that's not looking good.

I am not proud that my father has let things get this bad however its also not my responsibility to take over this debt. My father is living on a limited retirement and lost my mother's income when she died, long before they were able to get debt and finances in order and he even lost his house over not being able to afford the payments on that. As such, I simply don't think he has the ability to pay the monthly fee let alone catch it up.

Regardless though, you may be correct and they may be able to go after the property in this case even after the ownership is transferred. I don't plan to make assumptions and will be talking to an attorney on this issue.

Most likely this entire thing is a lost cause at this point. Its just hard for me to see the boat that I grew up with, learned to sail on, had many great trips on, that my parents had so many great times on in such bad shape and most likely going to be sold at an auction, or worse end up sunk at the bottom of the marina.

I am hoping that by taking over the boat and fixing her up that I will be able to get my dad out of his depression and interested in life again. However I may just be leaving this whole issue to work its self out soon as now it doesn't seem like my father even wants to talk to me as he won't return my calls now and I definitely don't have finances to get into a big legal situation over the boat and my father's debt. Unfortunately I feel if I just walk away from this whole thing it'll only get worse for my father and is likely to end up with the boat sitting on the bottom of the marina which will just kill me.

Anyways.. I do thank everybody for the information, advice and interest in the situation and for giving me a place to sound off and vent a bit about the situation. Sorry for the super crazy long posts

 

[tenders]

Have you thought about finding a boat partner to help you come up with the cash to get the boat clear of the marina, help you with repairs, and use the boat for the 99% of the time that you will not?

You could offer somebody something like 20-33% of the equity of the boat, meaning they'd get a third of the proceeds if the boat were sold, and a voice in big decisions, but not ultimate authority. Keep the boat titled in your name, or your dad's. Set up an alternating-week schedule of who has dibs on using the boat. Split maintenance costs AND maintenance time 50/50.

Good deal for the partner IF you find (or already know) somebody whose personality and mechanical skills are compatible with yours...good deal for you...good deal for your dad...marina problem goes away.

 

[gareth harris]

The other alternative is to consider living on the boat. I really liked life on the water when I lived on mine, and it would not take long for SF rent prices to make the sums you are talking about seem quite trivial. The extent to which your wife is willing to consider it may be critical - I once knew a family of 7 who lived on a boat in San Diego with their dog.

Just a thought...

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[Mick]

Have you thought about finding a boat partner to help you come up with the cash to get the boat clear of the marina, help you with repairs, and use the boat for the 99% of the time that you will not?

You could offer somebody something like 20-33% of the equity of the boat, meaning they'd get a third of the proceeds if the boat were sold, and a voice in big decisions, but not ultimate authority. Keep the boat titled in your name, or your dad's. Set up an alternating-week schedule of who has dibs on using the boat. Split maintenance costs AND maintenance time 50/50.

Good deal for the partner IF you find (or already know) somebody whose personality and mechanical skills are compatible with yours...good deal for you...good deal for your dad...marina problem goes away.

Yeah I've thought about that. Not very interested in it though, opens up too many potential civil issues which I'm trying to get her out of. Of course, it wouldn't be too hard to find somebody with the same mechanical skills... just need to find somebody else that is completely incompetent like me


Although I definitely agree, not very many boats get the usage they deserve. If one of my close friends was capable of this then I'd consider it but I don't think they are, or wouldn't be interested.

The other alternative is to consider living on the boat. I really liked life on the water when I lived on mine, and it would not take long for SF rent prices to make the sums you are talking about seem quite trivial. The extent to which your wife is willing to consider it may be critical - I once knew a family of 7 who lived on a boat in San Diego with their dog.

Heh funny, my wife and I would have done that in a second when we first got married if my mom and dad weren't using her so much back then. However now, with two children that may be a little wearing to be a live aboard for the family... and where the heck would I put my home theater system???

I'd be all over that idea right now though if it was just the wife and me but I don't think its plausible at this stage in life, for us at least.

The wife just got a listing this week and is showing houses to a new buyer so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she'll be able to get one or both of those in escrow soon and sold. If she can close those then we can come up with the money and I'll take care of the past due dock fees myself and get to work on the boat.