Balance in strong breeze

[Philip]

I have an E27 with roller furling and an outboard motor. When in a strong breeze, the bow falls off from the wind--fast! ( MOTORING WITH SAILS DOWN)The stronger the breeze, the more it tends to fall off. There is a a very good site at http://www.hamble.co.uk/files/ST172_98-104 (2).pdf that talks about the balance, pivot point, prop walk...... in handling the boat. Here is my issue; due to the fact that I have an outboard, there is no flow of water over the rudder until the boat is under way. ( an inboard pushes some water past the rudder prior to movement through the water giving some steerage) The amount of speed through the water to have control (minimum operating speed) increases as the breeze increases. At 15 to 20 mph winds, it seems to need 1.5 to 2 knots of hull speed to gain control, while heading up wind. It makes it nearly impossible to leave a dock heading into the wind in tight quarters-- or to enter the slip at a reasonable speed.

Some of this was discussed trying to just anchor on this site at the thread "Boat swings wildly at anchor in breeze" with the solution being to use an anchor riding sail.

Now to my question; Has anyone used something similar to an anchor riding sail to balance out the boats tendency to fall off? My idea is to put up a sail at the stern like an anchor riding sail---sized to just balance the boat. I realize that it may cause more lee movement--- but at least I might have control at slower speeds.

Thought I would see if anyone has tried this prior to going to the expense/trouble. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Phil

 

[Loren Beach]

sussing out the problem, and the reasons

You reference a thread about being anchored. But you also talk about being under way.


IF you describing your boat's behavior when sailing, and the boat is attempting to turn away from the wind, this is called "lee helm".
There are common reasons and perhaps some less common reasons why this might be happening to your particular boat.

Others here with an E-27 or lots of sailing experience will likely be checking in.

Your boat has an OB for it's aux. engine, right? When under sail that OB is tilted up clear of the water?
Anything else dragging in the water? (like an abandoned prop and shaft from a deceased inboard? Yes, I have seen boats like that from the early 70's.)

Rudder lined up straight with the tiller? Bottom clean?

Then, it's time to look at the sail plan. Balance of the sail plan, between fore sail and main sail, is pretty basic, and very important.
The normal first step is to look at the size of jib.

Does this boat have a stock main sail? In winds over 15 kts, do you have a reef in?

In that much wind (and that's a lot) are you using an overlapping jib? I hope that you are not flying a tired-out 135 or 150 genny in that much wind. That alone would cause a lot of healing and helm problems.

So, please describe your boat more completely.

Regards,
Loren

 

[G Kiba]

I have an e27 with an outboard. If you are writing about the bow falling off while motoring in winds above 15. Yes, mine will do that. The trick is not to motor in those conditions (unless going into the marina). Or, find shelter from the wind like the lee of a levy or break water. Better, reef or drop the main and roll out part of your head sail. IMHO, Your best bet is to use one or both sails.

 

[Christian Williams]

It makes it nearly impossible to leave a dock heading into the wind in tight quarters-- or to enter the slip at a reasonable speed.

This happens with inboard boats, too. The answer is "warping".

When departing the slip, manhandle the boat into the desired direction, then throttle. I rarely use the engine to leave my windward slip. I walk the boat out from the deck (not the dock), using the dock pylons, and push off so as to direct the bow where I want to go. Then I stroll to the cockpit and engage forward gear.

To regain a windward slip you can land someone off the bow with a line, then pull the boat in.

You can also come up alongside any nearby convenient landing place, then warp the boat in by use of control lines. I have walked boat-to-boat with a line over six boats to do this.

Essentially, this is just how you "sail" back into a tight slip, in case your engine fails. You get close, then warp in with lines.

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Better balance, strong breezes...

I had an E-27 for 30 years. When I got the boat it had severe weather helm. I fixed that by tilting the mast forward a little bit. You could not see the difference, but on the helm I could feel it. After that one adjustment, I never changjed it again. You seem to have the opposite concern. I would loosen the headstay, tighten the backstay and make sure the lowers are in tune, also. Do it one day when winds are average for where you sail. Don't put the cotter keys back in until you get it where you want it. You'll need to loosen the lowers, too. If you are not sure what to do and how to do to, come back with another message and we'll get you on your way. An E-27 OB has a split backstay. I put a backstay adjuster on mine. For everyday sailing I never messed with it. For racing I always had it in place. My 1973 E-27 OB was so fast that my competitors complained that I had a "cheater" rating. One should always look inward when one is getting his ass kicked by other boats. The problem is almost always looking at you in the mirror.

Fair winds, Morgan

 

[Gregoryulrich]

While mast rake does have a big effect on a boats balance, it sounds like you just may need to play around with how you set your sheets. This is very basic balance approach: first, if you have too much lee helm, harden up on your main sheet and ease your headsail sheet a bit. Hopefully neither sail is eased so much that it's flogging and this assumes your sail plan is balanced eg. a full main with a genoa or a reefed main and jib. Think of it this way, on a beat on a port tack you head sail causes you to call off, your mainsail will cause you to round up and your mast is roughly your pivot point.

Yes you will need a knot or two to maintain steerage, all sailboats do except those with thrusters, but you have one advantage over those of us with inboard engines; the ability to spin your outboard engine on its mount and direct it's thrust. It requires a bit of juggling and maybe some adjustment to the collar that controls the tension of the outboard's rotation. You can almost pivot your boat on its axis with the outboard engine fully deflected because the thrust is so far aft.

 

[Philip]

I am sorry-- I guess I was not clear that I did not mean while under sail. Sailing in high winds is not the problem. Drop the main, roll up the jib, and handling under motor is a whole different ball of wax. Trying to come back into the slip is a challenge under 15 mph winds. Leaving the slip under high winds can also be a challenge.... The bow falls off before there is enough speed to control the boat. G Kiba recognized what I was referring to..... but sailing into the slip is not a desirable option.... but I really don't want to be motoring into the assigned slip at 2 knots in order to keep control, and then trying to stop 6000 pounds of momentum in 30 feet (length of slip)l....and not sailing with good winds..prefer to sail ( I have single handed my old lightning in 15+ mph winds...no roller furling..no motor.)

Loren-- part of the thread had to do with slowing down enough to drop the anchor and having the bow fall off, then the boat would "pace" while at anchor.

I don't believe these boats where designed with roller furling in mind. Add 3" wide by thirty feet of windage and the balance must change.

The outboard pivots in one direction only. Tiller of motor hits the side of the cockpit. motor helps turn one direction.....

Please..keep the suggestions coming.

Phil

 

[bigd14]

We have the same configuration, and the same problem. I don't have any answers for docking. Except to accept the occasional scuff and ding. When leaving dock we use a long line attached to a midships cleat and looped over the end cleat on the dock to pivot the boat around when backing up. Once pointed in the right direction, pull in the loose line (while trying not to foul the outboard) and off we go. There are still several tense moments especially with a cross wind until boat speed is high enough for the rudder to bite. I would be interested to hear other's solutions too.

Doug

 

[G Kiba]

Like several others with the same configuration, I too feel more comfortable walking the boat out of the slip, pushing the bow through the wind and stepping on giving forward throttle. And yes, the cutout does not accommodate steering today's four stroke motors. I have about 3 degrees steerage to the left that I treasure. Also, I am known at my marina for being a pretty good sailor but hell on docks and docking.

Don't know if this will help - last month I replaced a 7 year old impeller on my Tohatsu outboard (surprisingly it was not in bad shape). On re-assembly I adjusted the trim tilting the motor a bit more forward than previous. Big difference. Reverse not longer rips the tiller from my grip and performs better at slowing the boat when docking. However leaving the motor idling in reverse, for a length of time (enough to secure four dock lines and greet friends at the dock), a vortex will form underwater and the intake pump will cavitate. Probably not good for the motor. The trim adjustment makes sense. Water flow directed more below the rudder.

Hope this helps you out.

 

[Guy Stevens]

People standing in the bow

I have found that even more problematic than a roller furling unit on small boats is people standing on the bow. They induce windage at the furthest point from the CLR and generally cause the bow to fall off.

When having coming into the dock have people stand at the maximum beam instead of on the boat to handle the lines. Getting ready to dock means bringing readying the lines so that they can be brought back to the middle of the boat.

Note also that the middle of the boat is likely to be closest to the dock when docking anyway.

Guy

 

[Philip]

Guy- thank you for pointing that person on bow may have more affect than roller furling. I hadn't added that into the mix as I usually don't have anyone there-- but do at times.

Still no one who has tried to balance the boat using something like an anchor riding sail?

Phil

 

[Loren Beach]

Windage and Storage

Guy- thank you for pointing that person on bow may have more affect than roller furling. I hadn't added that into the mix as I usually don't have anyone there-- but do at times.

Still no one who has tried to balance the boat using something like an anchor riding sail?

Phil

Now that I have a better understanding of the problem...
My guess is that adding *any* sail area to the boat when docking may lead to further revelations of the "Law of unintended consequences" !

As for the 'windage in the wrong place' that a furler provides, I can certainly see your point.
But then, our prior 26 foot boat had a hank-on jib and that certainly lowered the wind resistance forward when the jib was on deck.
But once we put a modern RF setup on the current boat we liked it so well (Instantly!) that I was sorry I had not done it for the prior boat ten years before.

About that particular RF genny on your boat. Let's consider that for a minute. If it is a dacron sail, and by definition has a lot of cloth bulk- like a 135 or a 150 % size - maybe it just has way too much diameter in that roll, i.e. windage.

From our experiences, when we went from the former "fluffy" dacron 135 to the present composite 95 with vertical battens, it is Noticeably Thinner in diameter when furled.

If you can find/borrow a jib made from thinner material and try it out for a day, you might be greatly encouraged. I realize that you are on a budget, so having strangers start spending your $$ via the internet is potentially tacky.

These days, you might find a deal in a lightly-used sail, or a new one from a budget sailmaker like LeeSails. No matter what source, this might be a good thing to put on the upgrade list.

Do not shy away from a sail like our new jib, either. The percentage overlap may seem small, but like our Olson, your boat has a decent size E measurement, similar to the J. That's just about like our rig, in proportion.

Our 95%, with the vertical battens has enough area in the upper half that to my untrained eye it has about the same real "drive" as a 105 or maybe a 110.
Sometimes... technology can be our friend. :nerd:

Anyhow, keep us posted.

Fair winds and soft landings,
Loren

 

[Ike]

find a new slip

Here in windy Berkeley the custom is to sail into your upwind slip. Fleets of Merit 25s, Ranger 23s, J22, and Santanas of various sizes take great pride on forgetting about their auxilliary for the most part. Unfortunately, our 27's are too slow on the helm in tight quarters (the small swept back rudder gives me fits) and 7k lbs of displacement with high freeboard can gather a lot of momentum in high winds in an instant, as damaged objects affixed to my dock can attest to.

For this reason I have remained in my downwind double-finger slip with the security of having dock on both sides vs getting a single finger upwind slip that would have been too tight to maneuver with anything less than laser like precision. The custom here on downwind slips is to tie a couple of fenders horizontally at about mid dock and use those to scrub off speed. one bounce is generally enough. In contrast, my "bug out" spot is a long 50' upwind slip that usually sits empty due to the dock being in disrepair. Sailing straight in under main and freeing the sheet to casually hop onto the dock and tie off is drama free.

My advice would be to take a stroll around your marina and look for an upwind slip with a clean approach and wide clearances, or a downwind double finger berth with some more room of then have a chat with the harbor master and wait patiently.

cheers,
Ike

s/v Skol
Berkeley, Ca

 

[Gregoryulrich]

I generally leave and enter my slip under sail alone. I do this more as an excercise in case I really need to due to engine failure. I'm in a leeward slip and the wind is almost always bow on so it's really easy. As I'm leaving I raise the main and set it for a beam reach. I walk the boat out halfway with the stern heading for the sea wall ,which is 3 slips away, then hop on. The sails fill and the boat begins to sail forward. If the wind is up it happens fast, if not it takes a little longer to get forward momentum but I've never been pushed too close to the downwind boats.

When returning, I will alternate between either the headsail or main alone. I prefer using the roller furling genoa because I can reef it up if I want less power and I don't need to deal with a flogging mainsail as I head to wind into the slip. To scrub speed you can steer a zig zag (if you have a tiller waggling it back and forth radically works like a brake) and blow the sheet altogether. I really don't need much speed coming in, surprisingly little in fact, and especially if I were in a windward slip. I don't really notice the bow falling off due to windage on the bow but I've always had furling head sails so I guess I don't know any differently.