Asymmetrical Sheet Attachment

[Cory B]

We just got an asymettrical for our boat, and I'm trying to figure out how best to attach the sheets. On our old boat we simply made a loop in the middle of a single, really long sheet, passed it through the clew, and ran the two ends through it (I saw a reference in a sailnet article that called this a "Cow Hitch"). It worked fine on the old boat, but I know that the sail is now bigger, and the loads now potentially a lot higher, and would like to know if I can get away with this again. The sheet can be attached "permanently" for our purposes, and if I don't have to pay for splices, I'd prefer not to.

Thanks for any input,
Cory

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Not sure what size boat you are talking about but FWIW on my E 38 I use two sheets both tied on with bowlines. I am not a fan of the cow hitch on biger boats as the line can move making one sheet longer or shorter when flogging they can also get so tight from the load that you can't get them untied. I would opt for 2 sheets tied on. You could splice them on too if you wanted but I dont know what the benefit of that would be. I am not a fan of attaching sheets with any sort of shackles as they could potentially kill someone if struck while the sail is flogging.

 

[Loren Beach]

We have used a "cow hitch" for the one-piece sheet for our 135 genny for a decade. It used to slowly slip/work one way or the other, and I put a few stitches around it with waxed twine to lock it into place. I chose that hitch because I wanted an attachment with the lowest chance of hanging up on a shroud during a tack in lighter air. I realize that using individual sheets and a pair of bowlines is more sailorly... (is that a word?).


Speaking of going downwind, as Corey pointed out we have a narrow venue here, sailing on a river. Lots of times it is diffficult to set an A sail for the preferred reach, having to set a dead down wind course.

OTOH the A sail combined with a sock is just soooooo easy to use that it is bound to see more air time than the average tri-radial.

Loren in PDX

 

[Mark F]

Getting a bit off of the subject here but following what Loren said about a sock on the asymmetrical allowing for more frequent use, I agree. I used to use a sock for my asymmetrical and it made handling quite easy. My problem was that I wanted a way to deploy and douse from the cockpit (I single-hand a lot). I did come up with a way to control the sock lines from the cockpit but I still had to go up front to set things up and to collect the socked sail after dousing.

I saw one of these Roll-Gen (http://www.rollgen.com/) set-ups at a boat show and was inspired. Problem was I couldn't justify the $1600 cost for my $2700 23' boat. I came up with a slightly different design for way less $ that works really well.

As for the asymmetrical seeing more air, it's always hoisted ready to unfurl. I use it all the time.

I guess this should have gone into the "favorite modification" thread from a few weeks ago.

 

[Chris Miller]

bowlines work great- I've moved to a "bridle" setup where I have 2 High tech core tapered sheets with eyes that luggage tag onto a 3 ft piece that gets tied to the clew ring. It makes gybing much less likely to get hung up- and makes a single point to tie (or cut should the need arise:0305_frow ). Just another option. Note: putting a shackle on a bridle HURTS when it hits you in the head-- I like the knot.
Chapman's has a great quote about the cow hitch-- paraphrasing: 'cow hitches are for cows, tie a damn knot!' (fwiw- they like the camel hitch better... I'm not sure why they aren't for camels, but I digress).

keep in mind that there are peeps out there that use one sheet-- gybe? oh yeah, we pull the sock down and run the gear around... so whatever works, works

Chris

 

[Roger Ware]

Peeps who use one sheet

Chris, what is a peep? - because I have certainly been one. I used my asym in a long distance race a couple of years ago and had some hot dinghy racers on board. I told them to tie the "sheet" onto the A-sail and hoist it. Aghast looks, "where's the other sheet?" . I pointed out that we had a 5 mile reach on starboard tack and then we douse the sail and round the mark on to the wind, what's the problem?

At the other end of the spectrum I was jibing my A-sail in the middle of the night last summer with sheets (yes, I had saved up for another one by then) that were too short for an outside jibe. Really fun, hanging over the side in the dark trying to retie a sheet to an "extension" to get it to the block.

Cheers, Roger, Kingston

 

[Chris Miller]

Hi Roger-

That was what I was trying to get across- whatever works, works! I wasn't trying to be unpleasant, just mentioning that there are lots of ways to do it.

Short sheeting doesnt' sound like fun, but at least it didn't end up in the prop (I recall missing a race on another boat due to sheet wrapped FIRMLY in the prop- had to cut the chute down after deciding diving while moving wasn't smart)

Chris


PS> Peeps = People (plural)

 

[Cory B]

Thanks!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

The boat is a 35-3. When I had previously done something similar to this I used lashings like Loren described to make sure the lines didn't move if/when the sail was flailing about.

I definitely won't be using any kind of metal shackles.

I'm also a big fan of socks, although for jibing I've always just jibed the chute around the forestay instead of using the sock. I had a chutescoop on the old boat, and an ATN on this, it will be interesting to see if I notice any difference.

I'm also going with "floating" sheets, probably 3/8 yale light. I once had to go into the water with a knife between my teeth to get a sheet removed from the prop, and never want to do that again.

So I think I've decided to try the "cow hitch" thing again on this boat. I like having no knots on the clew of the sail, and think that *maybe* it will be stronger than a bowline for a "hi-tech" line. Worst case is I'll have to cut the sheet in two and use bowlines or pay for some splices (I do like the bridle setup that Chris mentioned).

- Cory

 

[WBurgner]

Tackline

This has been an informative thread. I have been considering the use of an Asymetrical but not sure of how to rig it. I have an E381 and rigging the tackline is where I need advice. Other than the hooks meant for a hanked on sail I do not see a logical place to mount a shackle or block. The furler's drum obstructs a fair lead to those hooks. Suggestions?

 

[Chris Miller]

Anchor roller...

The anchor tackle gives the best freedom of movement (keeps stuff from rubbing on the bow pulpit). North Sails University suggests the anchor pin. We've used this method for a couple of years and love it. Easy to get the tack block on and off, works great. It held up in 25-30kts overnight on a race this year (tack line gave out, but that was quickly remedied with some better line). Long term, you might have a metal bail/loop welded on to the anchor tackle.
Then we run the tack line back through the organizer, through a clutch to a winch.

Then... the sheet attachment thing I was talking about earlier looks like below. (let me know, and I'll make ya a set )...
Image credit: APS website.
Chris

 

[WBurgner]

A-Sail tackline

Sorry to be so long getting back to you Chris. Totem is kept 120 miles from the house and I wanted to look things over before replying.

Your comments may answer a question I have had since owning the boat. There is a metal piece held to the anchor roller by the roller axel bolt. This strap-like piece has a hole in the end that may have been used as an attachment point for a block. The anchor pin is 1/4" and seems a bit light for this purpose. Mine has a slight bend in it. Might using it to hold the tackline block have caused that?

Would the use of an ATN Tacker be a benefit for flying the A-Sail to absorb the higher loads?

By the way, this is strictly to be used as a crusing chute.

By the way, I liked your Blog, Chris.

Bill
Orlando, FL

 

[Chris Miller]

I like having control over my sail (I'm a trimming junkie:nerd: ), so I don't like the tacker things-- just not my style.
If you have something to put the tack block on, you win the prize! Our anchor pin is bigger than 1/4", so it may hold the loads better.
I always figure "whatever works"... Just sharing what works for us.
Chris

 

[joerun26]

Anchor Roller for A Sym Tack Line

Chris -
Thanks for your response on the use of the anchor roller pin as a connection point for an A-Sym sail tack line. I am also new to this and have not yet used the A Sym but want to this year. I attached a photo of my anchor and like a previous post - my pin is fairly small and also bent (probably for the same reason previousy posted). I would appreciate any suggestions on where to connect my tack line (inside the bow pulpit or outside) - or better yet if anyone has any photos that would be great. Thanks again for the suggestions.
Joe
"Tenacious"
35-III

 

[Roger Ware]

A-sail tack line

Joe, when I first got my A-sail I hooked a snatch block onto the big "genoa hooks" on the deck (I think you have those too) for the tack line. Trouble is, if the tension drops, or the wind is gusty, it will come off, which is not good. Then I put the tack line right around the bow roller, which works fine, actually, except hard to adjust and "chafe" is definitely an issue. Then I had a new 1/2" bow roller pin made which still needs to be drilled through. I will hook a snatch block on to that. Then is will be perfect. It doesnt matter whether your tack line starts inside or outside the bow pulpit, the sail will fly fine. It really is a piece of cake to fly an A sail (with a snuffer), so the most important thing is to enjoy it.

Cheers, Roger, from freezing Kingston, ON
E38 200 Starlight II

 

[Chris Miller]

Hey Roger-- great idea! Bigger pin!!

Another option would be to use the hole from the anchor pin (as a bay sailor, I don't ever actually pin the anchor in with that thing---) and lash to it with a couple of loops of 3/16ths or 1/4 inch amsteel (cost you about $5 at WM). Then you won't bend the pin, and will still get to use the furthest fwd point on the boat for the block.
I agree with Roger- these sails are so much fun, and so easy to handle with a snuffer- you just can't go wrong.

Oh, and thanks Bill for the nice words about the boat blog- I've been pretty busy with an illness and loss in the family and haven't been able to keep up lately, but I need to get back to it. It's fun to do.

Chris

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I used something similar to what Chris is suggesting. I took a Lewmar Racing 60mm Single w/swivel and simply shackled it to the 1/4" pin hole. I tried putting a small shackle on the hole then using a snatch block but the added height made the lead screwy. I then run about a 15' line from the tack through the block back to a 5:1 purchase. I have not used it in any heavy air yet but it worked well in the light stuff. I am leaning much more towards symetricals for my 38 now though. The boat is just too hard to sail at the angles in breeze and without a pole I cant sail deep enough. I rigged a downhaul similar to my tack line setup. Ideally I'de like to get a good racing cut assym to fly off a pole but I have never seriously sailed an assym on a conventional pole and neither has any of my crew. We have discussed the mechanics of it all but have not yet really tried. In the Harbor cup last fall we flew my cruising assym tacked to the bow but when the breeze went aft we flew it off the pole with the tack line jury rigged. It worked great but we did not have to gybe. I am afraid it may be just easier to stay symmetrical for racing my 38 but will definately go assym for cruising.

 

[joerun26]

A-Sail Tack Line

Great looking sail Chris ....

Thanks Roger, Chris and Ted- You've give me some excellent ideas. I also have the snuffer with the A sail and am really looking forward to using it this year.

Joe
"Tenacious"
35-III