32-3 havers - what's your tacking angle?
- Thread starter Geoff W.
- Start date
IIRC you deal with significant tide movements thru that area. Down my way, tacking against (river) current produces some mighty slow progress to windward, and depressing angles. When driving, you probably allow for the effect of movement of the whole "playing field" but the question seems worth at least pondering... (?)
ConchyDug
Member III
What were the conditions for that track? Like wind speed, wave height/period. I noticed you hugged the coast south of the west point light, so maybe the fetch was gnarly outside the land shadow? To be honest I've never been super impressed by my Ericson's pointing ability in waves over 4-5', it is a shoal draft so it's hobbled from the get go. Depending on sail configs the most optimistic ideal angle would be 40-43° TWA at least for the 38' but the Ericson's all seem to be scaled versions of each other so it's probably similar on other models. Anymore than 20° of heel is a big vmg killer too so reef accordingly . You could inhaul some to gain a few degrees but that requires some extra rigging and fiddling. I dunno if you have a backstay tensioner but cranking it on to tighten the forestay will help with point but you lose wave punching power so keep a little outhaul eased to keep the bottom of the main a little fatter than flat to gain a little umph. For rig tune I usually watch the leeward shrouds for slackness if they are "jump roping" you are too loose. If it's light do the opposite of everything I just said generally. If you wanna point in an Ericson get an Olson 
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I don't find pointing angle very useful as a number.
It is very dependent on conditions, wind speed, and degree of heel. To get competitively close to the wind in a breeze requires crew on the rail and skilled helmsmanship to work waves and shifts. The danger of pinching is great.
I claim it is seat-of-the-pants, based on experience with the specific boat, or class of one-design. I claim that watching the angle to the relative wind is putting the cart before the horse, since racing to windward is anticipation--being ahead of the correct pointing angle, not seeking to confirm it.
That is: watch the compass for tactical wind shifts, not to confirm sail settings.
The bottom line is that some days, conditions permit higher pointing than on other days.
The right sails, and new sails, are a big factor to windward, and given similar skills at the helm the reason one boat goes by the other pointing higher and going faster.
It might be different on a 12 Meter, with a polar diagram and reams of recorded data on performance in different conditions and various sail choices. Cruising boats are less predictable.
It is very dependent on conditions, wind speed, and degree of heel. To get competitively close to the wind in a breeze requires crew on the rail and skilled helmsmanship to work waves and shifts. The danger of pinching is great.
I claim it is seat-of-the-pants, based on experience with the specific boat, or class of one-design. I claim that watching the angle to the relative wind is putting the cart before the horse, since racing to windward is anticipation--being ahead of the correct pointing angle, not seeking to confirm it.
That is: watch the compass for tactical wind shifts, not to confirm sail settings.
The bottom line is that some days, conditions permit higher pointing than on other days.
The right sails, and new sails, are a big factor to windward, and given similar skills at the helm the reason one boat goes by the other pointing higher and going faster.
It might be different on a 12 Meter, with a polar diagram and reams of recorded data on performance in different conditions and various sail choices. Cruising boats are less predictable.
On the other hand, Geoff, if you're going 11.8 knots (as in the graphic), I need to know the secret .
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Bolo
Contributing Partner
Yes! That’s the thing that first caught me eye. Although I’ve been sailing for about 25 years, mostly on the Chesapeake bay, I don’t consider myself an expert but I do OK. That said I do agree with Christian that sails, wind and sea conditions play a big role in how high you can point. That is very evident, believe it or not on the Chesapeake bay, because conditions can change frequently during a sail. That’s because wind directions can change suddenly when passing by a creek or river with land masses that can ”pinch” the wind and change its direction and especially speed. When solo sailing I sometimes find myself tending to the sheets and traveler more than actually staying behind the wheel. As for pointing angles for my E32-3, when sailing to windward I simply point as high as I can within the conditions I’m sailing in.On the other hand, Geoff, if you're going 11.8 knots (as in the graphic), I need to know the secret
Bolo
Contributing Partner
After having my first cup of coffee this morning I took another look at your screen capture and I have a question. Looking at the beginning of your track I was wondering why you didn’t just sail on until you cleared the point (Fort Lawton) before making your first tack to starboard. Not being familiar with Puget Sound I pulled up the chart on Navionics on my iPad and saw the “Vessel Traffic Service Area” clearly marked. Now, we have a lot of commercial traffic on the Chesapeake Bay, mostly going in and out of Baltimore, but there are no “Traffic Service Areas” designated. So my question is, are you restricted in entering the Traffic Service Area or is it like I suspect not a good idea because of the big boats in a hurry?
paulrtullos
Member I
what condition is your (boat)bottom in? i notice a distinct reduction in windward effectiveness when the bottom is fouled.
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
It's easier to point higher when the jib sheets are on the inside track, though I can usually sail faster when the jib sheets are led through the outside track, but my boat won't point as high then, but sailing is more fun.
Frank
Frank
Another thing that affects pointing angle is your prop. I have sailed for many years with fixed (two and three blade) and a feathering prop. The boat pointed several degrees higher consistently with the feathering prop.
Frank Langer
1984 Ericson 30+, Nanaimo, BC
That's interesting, Loren. I wasn't aware of the prop affecting pointing ability. Now I appreciate my two blade folding propeller even more!
Frank
Puget sailor
Member II
Just learning the ways of my 32-3 out of Port Madison, just a west of where your track is on Puget Sound.
Looking at your data, and ignoring the speed, the total distance and time shows more like 4.5 knots, which makes more sense than 11.8!
I've been working on boat speed in that same water. I find by racing on Thursday nights that I'm better off not trying to point as high as I can unless I'm trying to claw around a buoy or avoid a competitor. Otherwise, freeing up = better velocity made good.
But the big wild card in Puget sound is tide current which in that area can be 1-2 knots for or against. In other words your actual sailing angles might be better than the track suggests if sailing into the current. The other obvious variable more likely to be at issue than rig tune would be bottom condition which can change pretty quick in these parts, especially if it's been more than 2 years since hauling out. Though not so much this time of year compared to spring and summer.
I feel like I can sail up to about 30 degrees off the wind and still be moving ok, tighter than that I'm still going but it feels too slow for the wind. In my dinghy days I'd pinch it like that and feel ok, but there is a lot of boat to move through the water with a E32-3 so I have to train myself to fall off and go faster. I find our high aspect ratio mains are not very efficient at much to be honest, so that leaves the genoa to do the real work. Going to windward, getting the sheet angles optimized makes a big difference, relatively speaking. And as mentioned in a post above, to get best upwind angle, moving the sheets to the inboard track is best, but only for really pinching. That's with a 120% Genoa, perhaps smaller than originally intended by Ericson, but closer to what most people find manageable. In my case I was surprised by how far forward the sheeting position needed to be to get good drive and twist on the upper part of the sail. I believe the method is to have telltales in at least three places vertically, and adjust the sheet angle such that as you head too far up, they all stall at about the same time. Of course the position will vary slightly with wind force too, but that's the general idea. If top or bottom is stalling well before the other end, the there is too much or too little twist, and the sheeting angle needs a tweak.
I have yet to mess with any standing rigging tension settings. Mine all came fairly tight and they don't get slack under load that I've noticed so I say good enough. My rigging is old so I'm not eager to crank on the backstay to minimize head sag.
Of course the other big question is sail shape and age, but that changes very gradually. Getting more luff tension might help pull the draft forward on the main, which could also improve upwind performance a bit, but I think it's mostly the genny that's doing the grunt work. That's another sail to consider the shape and age of naturally...
Are you sailing out of Elliot Bay? I know of 2 other 32-3's around here, one in Eagle Harbor and the one for sale in Kingston.
I'm base out of Port Madison. If you are nearby it might be fun to sail against each other sometime, try to figure out what's what. Port Madison Yacht Club races Thursday evenings spring and summer, PHRF, very low key.
Looking at your data, and ignoring the speed, the total distance and time shows more like 4.5 knots, which makes more sense than 11.8!
I've been working on boat speed in that same water. I find by racing on Thursday nights that I'm better off not trying to point as high as I can unless I'm trying to claw around a buoy or avoid a competitor. Otherwise, freeing up = better velocity made good.
But the big wild card in Puget sound is tide current which in that area can be 1-2 knots for or against. In other words your actual sailing angles might be better than the track suggests if sailing into the current. The other obvious variable more likely to be at issue than rig tune would be bottom condition which can change pretty quick in these parts, especially if it's been more than 2 years since hauling out. Though not so much this time of year compared to spring and summer.
I feel like I can sail up to about 30 degrees off the wind and still be moving ok, tighter than that I'm still going but it feels too slow for the wind. In my dinghy days I'd pinch it like that and feel ok, but there is a lot of boat to move through the water with a E32-3 so I have to train myself to fall off and go faster. I find our high aspect ratio mains are not very efficient at much to be honest, so that leaves the genoa to do the real work. Going to windward, getting the sheet angles optimized makes a big difference, relatively speaking. And as mentioned in a post above, to get best upwind angle, moving the sheets to the inboard track is best, but only for really pinching. That's with a 120% Genoa, perhaps smaller than originally intended by Ericson, but closer to what most people find manageable. In my case I was surprised by how far forward the sheeting position needed to be to get good drive and twist on the upper part of the sail. I believe the method is to have telltales in at least three places vertically, and adjust the sheet angle such that as you head too far up, they all stall at about the same time. Of course the position will vary slightly with wind force too, but that's the general idea. If top or bottom is stalling well before the other end, the there is too much or too little twist, and the sheeting angle needs a tweak.
I have yet to mess with any standing rigging tension settings. Mine all came fairly tight and they don't get slack under load that I've noticed so I say good enough. My rigging is old so I'm not eager to crank on the backstay to minimize head sag.
Of course the other big question is sail shape and age, but that changes very gradually. Getting more luff tension might help pull the draft forward on the main, which could also improve upwind performance a bit, but I think it's mostly the genny that's doing the grunt work. That's another sail to consider the shape and age of naturally...
Are you sailing out of Elliot Bay? I know of 2 other 32-3's around here, one in Eagle Harbor and the one for sale in Kingston.
I'm base out of Port Madison. If you are nearby it might be fun to sail against each other sometime, try to figure out what's what. Port Madison Yacht Club races Thursday evenings spring and summer, PHRF, very low key.
Count me in (once the weather's a bit nicer)!
I second that! Anything to share?On the other hand, Geoff, if you're going 11.8 knots (as in the graphic), I need to know the secret
There’s no restriction on entering the VTS lanes as long as you’re not impeding traffic. We get pretty close to yellow “SG” a lot coming in our out of EBM depending on wind direction.
That said Magnolia Bluff and West Point play some tricks with the wind so I’d guess the wind shifted pretty significantly once clear of WPOW1. @Geoff W. was this the case?
Seems like we can get good VMG up to 35* in flat water and 10 kts TWS. It drops off as wind speed and sea state increases. By 15 kts it’s closer to 40* and if we need draft to punch through waves it’s even higher. By 20 kts it’s probably 45* but with just two of us aboard we’re pinching by then to keep the boat flat even with two reefs in 
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Wow sorry I posted and disappeared, I was expecting e-mail notifications if someone replied -- I need to check my settings.
So on my boat I have:
4 year old sails, a dacron fully battened main and a cruising laminate 135% genoa
Bottom is cleaned monthly and was just recently cleaned
3 blade MaxProp
Wind at the time of this picture was showing about 15-20 Apparent (I don't have TWS on my boat)
Genoa was reefed to 100% and my main had no reefs in it. I was probably about 20 degrees heeled (felt pretty good I was holding her relatively controlled without a main reef in)
Sea state was what you would expect for it to have been blowing 15-25kts from the south all day and flooding against it (read: choppy)
Going upwind I am always on the inside track -- I only go outside track if I'm broad reaching or deeper for a long time, and I'm not putting the kite up.
So typing all of that out I'm like, yeah -- I'm not going to be tacking through 30 degrees or something I've not done a lot of races recently though and the last one I did, it seemed like I was consistently 10degrees down from the rest of the fleet (also cruisers)
@christian and @Bob -- The key to going 11.8 knots is to forget to stop tracking when you drive home. It really does wonders for your average "speed over ground", as it were....
Explanation on the routing I took:
That screenshot shows me sailing in a flood, but at the time of the picture, it was basically max ebb (going against me). The current is much stronger in the middle of the channel than ducking in.
For the local sailors, the 'playbook' when you're trying to get around West Point in an ebb is to duck behind West Point, getting as close to shore as you feel you are able / have the wind to for current relief. You can get pretty damn close. We usually have someone watching the depth sounder and calling for tacks like "15feet.... 14.... 13.... 11... 109tacktacktack" but it's a soft bottom if you hit. As the sand bar of West Point sticks out almost all the way to the green buoy, it'll be fun sometimes to see boats sailing one line out to the green buoy, crossing the visible tide line, and start treading water....
@Bolo as another poster says above, no restrictions on entering VTS, just stay out of the way. Some people are much more rigid about "I only cross the traffic lanes perpendicularly and as fast as possible" but me of course knowing better than everyone else, I just keep an eye out for the big boats and get out of the way.
Though, there was one race a few years ago where the fleet did NOT give way to a cargo ship... the cargo ship had to do a complete 360 in the middle of the sound............ and ever since then there is a serious talking-to by the Coast Guard at a lot of the local race skippers' meetings.
On this day, there weren't big boats in my way so I wasn't worried about sailing out to mid-channel, it just felt bad in a spiritual sense to sail halfway to Bainbridge and then turn around again.
Though I did have to duck this guy farther north:
You can see the duck up north here (here's more of the track of that day):
Just for a bit more illustration, here was the day prior (I had to start motoring around the south end of Bainbridge when the wind was blocked by Blake Island/Kitsap:
And the conditions this day looked like this: link to google video
@Puget sailor -- yes sailing out of EBM! I used to run the Wednesday Night bainbridge race down out of Eagle Harbor when I lived over there. Would love to meet up with you and Bruce and whatever 32s we can find for a bit of "one design"
So on my boat I have:
4 year old sails, a dacron fully battened main and a cruising laminate 135% genoa
Bottom is cleaned monthly and was just recently cleaned
3 blade MaxProp
Wind at the time of this picture was showing about 15-20 Apparent (I don't have TWS on my boat)
Genoa was reefed to 100% and my main had no reefs in it. I was probably about 20 degrees heeled (felt pretty good I was holding her relatively controlled without a main reef in)
Sea state was what you would expect for it to have been blowing 15-25kts from the south all day and flooding against it (read: choppy)
Going upwind I am always on the inside track -- I only go outside track if I'm broad reaching or deeper for a long time, and I'm not putting the kite up.
So typing all of that out I'm like, yeah -- I'm not going to be tacking through 30 degrees or something
I've not done a lot of races recently though and the last one I did, it seemed like I was consistently 10degrees down from the rest of the fleet (also cruisers)@christian and @Bob -- The key to going 11.8 knots is to forget to stop tracking when you drive home. It really does wonders for your average "speed over ground", as it were....
Explanation on the routing I took:
That screenshot shows me sailing in a flood, but at the time of the picture, it was basically max ebb (going against me). The current is much stronger in the middle of the channel than ducking in.
For the local sailors, the 'playbook' when you're trying to get around West Point in an ebb is to duck behind West Point, getting as close to shore as you feel you are able / have the wind to for current relief. You can get pretty damn close. We usually have someone watching the depth sounder and calling for tacks like "15feet.... 14.... 13.... 11... 109tacktacktack" but it's a soft bottom if you hit. As the sand bar of West Point sticks out almost all the way to the green buoy, it'll be fun sometimes to see boats sailing one line out to the green buoy, crossing the visible tide line, and start treading water....
@Bolo as another poster says above, no restrictions on entering VTS, just stay out of the way. Some people are much more rigid about "I only cross the traffic lanes perpendicularly and as fast as possible" but me of course knowing better than everyone else, I just keep an eye out for the big boats and get out of the way.
Though, there was one race a few years ago where the fleet did NOT give way to a cargo ship... the cargo ship had to do a complete 360 in the middle of the sound............ and ever since then there is a serious talking-to by the Coast Guard at a lot of the local race skippers' meetings.
On this day, there weren't big boats in my way so I wasn't worried about sailing out to mid-channel, it just felt bad in a spiritual sense to sail halfway to Bainbridge and then turn around again.
Though I did have to duck this guy farther north:
You can see the duck up north here (here's more of the track of that day):
Just for a bit more illustration, here was the day prior (I had to start motoring around the south end of Bainbridge when the wind was blocked by Blake Island/Kitsap:
And the conditions this day looked like this: link to google video
@Puget sailor -- yes sailing out of EBM! I used to run the Wednesday Night bainbridge race down out of Eagle Harbor when I lived over there. Would love to meet up with you and Bruce and whatever 32s we can find for a bit of "one design"
This is the same problem/solution I run into!
I wonder how different the 32 is from the 35. When the wind kicks up, I usually take the first reef in the main, next step is dropping the main (skipping the 2nd reef) and sailing under full 135% (I think) genoa. From there, I start reefing the head sail. I fought this strategy for a while because I didn't like the aesthetics of sailing with just a headsail, but the boat is easier to sail in the groove and the crew is happier. I'm guessing this strategy makes for a better VMG or at least that's what I tell myself. It seems to hold up when pacing other cruisers as the opportunity arises.
Bolo
Contributing Partner
Southofvictor, Thanks for the response. Like I said in my post, there are no VTS lanes on the Chesapeake Bay (except near the bridge-tunnel, I think) but the "maneuverable" lanes under the Chesapeake Bay bridge are tight for large ships which come on very fast sometimes. Luckily most announce their estimated times of going under the bridge but not all do that and almost never tugs pushing/pulling barges which are hard to see at time with their low profiles and the way they blend in with the opposite shore line. Winds near and between the twin bridges can also play some tricks. I've have the wind change 180 degrees because it rips past one of the large concrete supports and then does a curl coming around to the other side of the boat temporarily. It's very strange and scary at times. When going under the bridge, under sail, I sometimes start my auxiliary just in case I need to power through.
I had a race where I reefed the main before the genoa and I swear it was the right move. Like you say, felt totally locked in the groove.
I feel like if I'm going close-hauled, though, I don't sail very well under genoa-only. I think the main helps a good amount with point-ability.