30+ Steering Issue

[bigd14]

So I was lying in the back of the boat figuring out plumbing and something funny about the steering gear caught my eye. The steering has been loose since I got the boat a few months ago. I tightened the turnbuckles which helped but there is still lots of play in the system. I found the sheaves need new bushings, which should help along with tightening the turnbuckles even more.

But what has me wondering about the system is the fact that the wires do not come off the quadrant straight to the sheaves- they drop down a bit. I always assumed this should be a straight line to eliminate chafe. Furthermore, the rudder has dropped onto the quadrant since it is out of the water and no longer buoyant (you can see its dropped about half an inch from the grease line at the top of the rudder post). It appears the alignment will get worse when the boat is in the water and the rudder pushes back up. Also, note that there is another bolt hole in the quadrant, which perhaps indicates that the original quadrant location was lower down. Perhaps it was rubbing on the rudder tube shaft seal so they moved it up?

Anyway, this is a long winded way of getting to my question, which is do I need to get smaller sheaves to make this angle right? Or will the system tolerate some level of misalignment and I just check it more often?

Thanks

 

[Frank Langer]

I don't think I've crawled into that part of our E30+ to inspect the rudder when it has been hauled, so I can't comment for sure. However, the steering cable is currently more loose than on ours. I think it should only deflect about a 1/2 " to 3/4" at it's longest stretch and should not look slack like it does in your picture. I recognize that you may have loosened it in preparation for replacing the bushings on the sheaves, but if not, I think they need to be tighter.

I would not replace the sheaves with smaller ones, partly because I think they were probably designed correctly, but also because on our E30+ they work fine and are aligned well. Instead, I would concentrate on determining why the rudder has slipped down and why it all doesn't line up as it should. Clearly the rudder should move freely from side to side, but I don't think there should be any up/down movement.

Given what you're seeing, it may be a good idea to drop the rudder and do a thorough inspection of the entire steering system.

Good luck, and let us know what you find!

Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

I'm pretty sure that the hole for the long stainless bolt through the quadrant has been re-drilled, under the original hole.

An aluminum quadrant (two halves) with stainless machine screws holding it together often gets fused. Somebody may have re-drilled because the old quadrant holes would not line up, and maybe that contributed to the overall alignment issue.

Long shot:

Sometimes the packing gland comes off the rudder tube and the tube has to be built up to re-secure it, which could change the height of the tube and therefore mess up the alignment.

But you would know by examination if the tube has been modified, as in this picture (which I found on my computer, without a source):

 

[bgary]

do I need to get smaller sheaves to make this angle right?

I have no expertise here, but...

my guess is that if you got smaller sheaves it might solve the angle to the quadrant, but create a new problem where the cables go up through the deck.

 

[Christian Williams]

Big,

Can you confirm for us that the apparent canting/tilting of the quadrant and the gland, that is, not perpedicular to the rudder post--is a photographic illusion?

My guess is that it is.

But the picture bugs me.

The top of the rudder tube -- the fiberglass tube --is perfectly flat, right? The bronze gland isn't tilted. The quadrant isn't tilted, right?

 

[Tom Metzger]

It looks to me like the quadrant has been flipped over. This would account for the misalignment of the sheaves.

 

[Emerald]

It looks to me like the quadrant has been flipped over. This would account for the misalignment of the sheaves.

I was looking at this thinking the exact same thing - flip it, and it looks like the mark on the shaft up high would align with what would now be the top of the body of the quadrant

 

[Christian Williams]

Here's the quadrant installed on a 32-3.

 

[Afrakes]

Rudder tube to high

I'm with Christian on this. Flipping the quadrant would not allow it to align with the hole drilled through the rudder shaft. I also believe that the rudder tube is too high. As has been pointed out, the evidence of this is the extra hole drilled through the quadrant. My quadrant, which is out of the boat at the moment, has only one hole for the through bolt. I'd like to see a picture of the rudder relative to the bottom of the boat. On my rudder there is a 1/8" thick nylon washer between where the rudder enters the tube. The nylon washer is tight to the bottom of the boat and the top of the rudder.

 

[Emerald]

Yep, seeing it on another boat is always good - and this would look like it is in the correct orientation, so on to the next thought.

 

[bigd14]

Christian, the photo is indeed an illusion. The quadrant is level and the gland is level. The rudder tube looks original. I will try to get a photo of the rudder shaft from the outside next time I am at the boat. It seems like it dropped a bit on haulout, and I can lift it back up a half inch from the outside. But wouldn't the quadrant be the only thing holding the rudder up anyway? Remove that bolt and the quadrant and it should drop, right? Or is there another bolt higher up in the system somewhere?

I have some more investigation to do and I'll report back. Thanks for all the replies.

Doug

 

[bigd14]

Here is a photo of the rudder tube I found. It looks original to me.

 

[Afrakes]

Original

Original or not it still seems too high for correct alignment with the idler pulleys.

 

[Christian Williams]

The single bolt is the key connection--it holds the rudder up and fixes the position of the quadrant. The halves of the quadrant are connected for convenience.

I think you have a modified rudder tube. The solution in that case would be simply to saw off the top at the correct height, and reconnect the long bolt into its original hole.

The bronze packing gland extends down about three inches into the tube.

When I worked on this problem, I was told that the gland is typically seated into the tube with 5200, at time of reassembly.

This allows a "floating" seat, a "self-sealing" connection, necessary because the tolerances are crude and machined surfaces are not practical.

It is common, over time, that the 5200 looses its grip, the bronze packing gland turns with the quadrant, and some sea water comes in under certain sailing conditions.

This might have led to a modification of the rudder tube.

The packing gland is not very important. I have seen it called a "top seal." This design of gland cannot be made waterproof, like a stuffing box, since thh flax inside cannot be progressively tightened. The assembly just closes off the top of the tube, without strangling the rudder post and making steering stiff.

The tube is also supposed to be full of grease, which greatly inhibits water getting to or past the gland.

But the grease fitting is usually frozen, so no grease for many years.

I'm just a boat owner, not a shipyard expert, and may have missed something of course.

The evidence for theory is

1. Re-drilled bolt hole. Original hole appears to line up the whole assembly as designed.

2. Quadrant is too high and the rudder tube makes it too high.

3. Rudder tube appears painted, with what looks like overlapped cloth.

You could remove the paint for a closer look.

 

[Christian Williams]

A little more, if you can stand it:

What happens if you replace the sheave bushings and tighten the cables to about 1" deflection?

Yes, the quadrant is a little misaligned, but maybe it will work OK. Presumably it has been working OK.

I don't know that the rudder has dropped down. On my two boats, the quadrant normally rests on the rudder tube, and there is a Delrin washer there.

 

[Frank Langer]

This is a very interesting thread, and I've been following closely as we also have an E30+. Although we're in the midst of a northwest pacific storm so I can't get into the stern locker to take a picture (the rain would flood the open locker:0), based on my recollection I don't think the rudder post is too high and mine is also painted that off white colour as shown in the pics above. So I think the rudder tube is original and has not been altered. But I do think the quadrant might be upside down. In it's current position, the black rubber stops are fitting nicely against the aluminum stops, better than I recall it fitting if the quadrant were in it's correct position, so I'm wondering if a previous owner flipped it for that slight advantage, not realizing the other problems that it might create.

I agree with Christian in attempting to tighten the steering cable to it's correct tension first to see how that affects alignment of the cable. If that's not sufficient to get a good angle, then flipping the quadrant may be necessary, unless something else emerges as a problem or solution.

Frank

 

[sailorman37]

Ericson 30+ rudder tube

Here are a couple of pictures of my 1980 30+ when I was refitting. It looks like the sheave is slightly lower than the quadrant.

 

[bigd14]

Great ideas, thanks. I am first going to try to tighten everything up and see how it looks and feels. Then I may try to block the rudder up from the bottom and reinstall the quadrant at the top bolt hole and see where everything ends up (I am wondering if someone reinstalled it without the rudder shaft being fully pushed up in the tube). Also the cables coming down from the wheel are at the forward edge of the pipe running through the cockpit sole. So that might accommodate a slightly smaller sheave. That would be my last option. Well, actually my last option would be cutting the rudder tube down. That sounds like more work than I want to deal with now unless absolutely necessary. The rudder tube may well have been re-done, because the zerk fitting is partially covered with fiberglass. I was wondering how that would even be possible. Now I know! If it was, it was a long time ago. The paint is pretty old looking.

 

[bigd14]

Here are some photos of the rudder from the outside. The first picture is with me holding the rudder as far up as possible. The second with it hanging. You can see there is about a half inch of play.

The rudder sounded out ok. Hopefully its just surface rust...

 

[bolbmw]

That seems like a lot of play to my eye. This is the rudder of my '81 30+ which was just hauled out today.