12 volt cable question

[Loren Beach]

I have a choice in where to install my spiffy new Blue Seas battery switch panel. [This will replace the existing "1-2-All" rotary switch.]

I checked with a local marine electrician about distance from the battery to the switch that would satisfy ABYC guidelines and he sez to fuse it or get to the switch within 6 feet of cable.

He also pointed out that manufacturers violate this "rule" often and so do legions of repair persons. He likes the rule, personally.

Anyone here actually measured this wire run on their Ericson (or Olson)?
This is the large #2 or 4 red cable to the main switch, and thence to the breaker panel.

The choice I mention is to relocate the switch position from the aft cabin to the base of the nav station furniture. This would be better for access in my particular boat, but would be at the 6 foot limit of the distance specified.

Electrical Wizards, what say ye?

Thanks,
Loren in PDX
Olson 34 #8

 

[hodo]

battery cable

Loren, on my E38 the cable length to the master switch from the battery is right close to 5.5 feet. I think it depends a lot on the expected load and the size of cable. If you are running the starting motor through this switch,use the heavier rated cable. Your house accessories should all be fused at the panel. I have seen some boats wired to about 12ft. Hodo

 

[rssailor]

Cable lengths

Loren,
I do not think that ABYC requires you to have a fuse or breaker on a circuit that supplies the starter and this would include the house if it is used as the emergency start bank. It is good to use a fuse or breaker on the between the battery and switch. You might think about the blue sea high load circuit breakers as they go from two hundred amps to three hundred amps. I have used many of these breakers on installations aboard many customers boats. Good luck, ABYC guidlines are a good place to start. Ryan

PS what blue sea battery switch panel are you using?

 

[Loren Beach]

Secrets from the Electrical Inner Sanctum!

I bought the Blue Seas PN 8080, with the 100 amp house breaker and the separate engine switch. There is an emergency cross-connect as well.

It's interesting about ABYC and their guarding their material. They do not provide their information unless one pays around $250. Since a lot of sailors do their own work, they have to get bits of this information from other books or ask their friends in the industry... or get information from strangers on the 'net.

Then, at some point, their insurer will require a survey and the owner may find out that some of his/her work must be done over to maintain insurability (whether there is really any risk to the collateral or not). It is interesting that in the end, a local surveyor will pass or fail this stuff purdy much at random. I have seen this last part play out for over 20 years...

[minor rant mode on]
Sidebar: I guess the whole ABYC situation just bothers me a bit because this is not Lunar Lander Design or advanced genetic engineering we are doing here -- just basic 12 volt circuitry. It seems like the standards we will be held accountable to should not be withheld from us.
[rant mode off]

BTW, the elecrician I spoke to did mention the fact that hardly anyone tries to fuse the starter motor cable for the reasons mentioned by "rssailor."
Food for thought, though... I wonder how often the engine battery bank shorts out and melts down that wire? How about the charge wire from the alternator?

Questions, questions....

As usual, thanks for the input. It all helps.
Loren in PDX

 

[Guy Stevens]

If you weren't willing to spend the $250 for ABYC...

Then what makes you think that the surveyor has????

Remember too that you are only looking at one part of the ABYC manual....

And also remember the dues at a minimum of $400.00 or so, for which you are included on a list. I have seen some amazing tall tales that surveyors have told their clients in the name of ABYC.

It was always my hope that when they started producing the recommendations on CD instead of in print, that they would be published for a reasonable cost, say $40.00 or something. No such luck. Someone somewhere is mining the industry with the ABYC thing..Not for profit does not equal NON PROFIT......

Another of my complaints the whole thing is that they are BOAT AND GEAR MAKERS deciding what is REQUIRED.... Fox and the chicken house all the way around if you want my opinion.....

Guy

 

[NateHanson]

Another of my complaints the whole thing is that they are BOAT AND GEAR MAKERS deciding what is REQUIRED.... Fox and the chicken house all the way around if you want my opinion.....

Guy

I completely agree with the sentiment that these guidelines should be much more freely available, consistent with the purported goal of building safer boats.

But while there is a definite conflict with the marine industry making the guidelines itself, I find it much better than having the government make requirements on how I work on my boat. I don't consider myself libertarian (or even a small-government supporter in most cases), but I hate the fact that my state won't allow me to do any plumbing work in my own house - even with an inspector's oversight! I'd hate to see that become an issue with our boats.

Nate

 

[Loren Beach]

ABYC = Davinci Code?

Nate,
Please note that I was not de-crying the existance or desirability of "standards", just the fact that they are effectively "hidden" from the boater owner actually doing the work.

For instance, if I want to know about "code" for wiring my house, I can pick up a code book from any building supply store -- I even have old code booklets around here from 30 and 40 years ago!

Your household plumbing issue is quite another thing, and will vary from state to state, and I would guess that to be a "states rights" issue. Anyway, "government" interference is really not the problem here.

I like the idea of publishing the ABYC stuff in CD form. I am amazed that We$t Marine does not do this. After all, they make plenty of money selling the parts and wire. One would think that liability reasons alone would make them do this...
End user education aside, product liability is the other "elephant in the room" reason that the hardward store makes the house wiring booklets available inexpensively (he wrote with a cynical chuckle).

Hmmm... are we getting off track here?
:eek:

Anyway, thanks for the help,
Loren in PDX

 

[Mike.Gritten]

Nigel Calder's book on boat electrical and mechanical systems (I can't remember the name - I just bought it a few weeks ago) says the ABYC standard says that ALL sources of power should be fused VERY close to the source. Taken verbatim, Mr. Calder points out that this would include alternators, battery chargers, start/house battery banks, wind/solar generators, etc. Following his recommendations we are going to put large fuses next to both battery banks before going the 6 or so feet to the main switch. In case of a dead short that 6 feet of cable could make things very nasty firewise. We had a short in our start battery last year that literally melted the 2/0 cable runs to the switch. Thank goodness those cables were run without other wiring tiewrapped to them or we would have really had a nasty problem.
BTW, Mr. Calder says that very few people (and no major manufacturers, to his knowledge) meet the letter of the ABYC code when it comes to this fusing issue. He recommends that ALL batteries at least should be fused, and he recommends that these fuses be within 7" of the batteries!

 

[dave_g]

While this is not a complete version, the Bluesea website has excerpts from the ABYC at: http://www.bluesea.com/sections.asp I agree with Mike, Nigel Calder's book is a great reference.

 

[gareth harris]

West Marine sell a combined selector switch and 100A circuit breaker, which I mounted at the side of my battery box. I wired both batteries to it, and then the output of the circuit breaker to a bus bar, which had a cable to the main circuit breaker panel which in the E35 is about 25 ft of wire away. A number of other items were powered directly from this bus bar, such as macerator, which would have required too thick (i.e. expensive) wiring to be run from the main panel, they all had their own fuse installed in their circuit.

The starter, and alternator, were wired to the selector switch without going through the 100A CB, nothing else.

It was about 9" from the battery to the 100A CB, a set up which minimised the chances of anything causing a short circuit that would not be protected by a circuit breaker. No matter what it says in the regulations, any part of an electrical system can cause an overload at any time - even wiring, and needs to be protected, with the exception of the starter, which is not practical, and the alternator, which can be damaged if the CB opens.

Case in point, in the early days I had my boat, one of the connectors to the instruments on the ignition panel got loose, shorted on a ground, which caused a wire on the engine to melt through the starter cable, which shorted to the engine block: I heard the starter suddenly going when there was no key in the ignition, looked below to see the cabin filling with smoke. Had the same happened once I had rebuilt my system, it would have just tripped the ignition circuit breaker on the main panel.

So to return to the original question, Loren, if you protect your system the way I did, the two big factors in where you mount your panel are:

1. Where it is easy to reach when in use.
2. Close to most of the electrical equipment on the boat, which will keep both the required length, and thickness, and therefore cost, of wire to a minimum.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

I have large fuses attached to my positive terminals. These protect EVERYTHING that is connected to my battery. The Alternator cable runs through a 200amp fuse. MY alt. is rated at 100 amps. If that fuse blew I would much rather burn out my alternator than burn out my boat. I have a 150 amp fuse on the cable going to the starter cable, again mounted within 6" of the battery. The starter should never draw more than 30 or 40 amps and so if the 150 amp fuse blew it would be for good reason, again preventing a fire and many feet of burnt up wiring. I have the same Blue Sea panel mentioned above. I have the panel less than a foot from the house bank and do not have a fuse between the house positive and the 100 amp breaker that is on the panel itself, guess I could lose a foot of wire here but the chance of a short occurring between that breaker and the battery are pretty slim. The rule I follow (and this is my opinion so take it for what its worth) is that absolutely nothing should be run directly to the battery without being fuse protected. I use bus bars when possible and only have one cable going to each battery terminal and the positives are fuse as close the battery as possible. Fuse blows, battery is disconnected from short, fire is prevented.

 

[gareth harris]

I stand corrected - I guess it is possible to fuse a starter on at least some engines, and will look into doing that on my new engine when I buy it.

I still think it better to give an alternator its own protection system, so that it will not be destroyed by the failure of another component.
Gareth

 

[Guy Stevens]

Starter Amp Load....

The starter should never draw more than 30 or 40 amps

Errrrrrrr No..... Inrush current on a perkins 4-108 diesel can be up to several hundred amps, (over 500 amps actualy is quite normal), then tapering down from there.....

Even smaller diesels, such as a 1 cylinder yanmar will draw over 60 continous when starting, again much more at initial inrush and locked rotor amps....

A good clue for this is to look at the battery cables even on the smallest cars, let alone boats, ever seen a number 10 going to a starter on even a subcompact?

To fuse or not to fuse (the starter and the alternator) that is the question....... Both have advantages and dissadvantages as have been discussed here. Boat fires are a significant source of boat damage and insurance claims. All loads should be fused, however is a 500 amp fuse on the starter going to prevent the wire from causing a fire if there is a dead short....

Just a note: If the Fuse that you are installing is of a great rating than the wire, then you can still have a fire, a 100 amp fuse hooked to number 22 wire will start a nice fire, Heck even a coil of metal hooked to a 10 amp fuse makes a nice ciggarette lighter on your car....


Guy

 

[jmoses]

Surveyor's opinion -72 inches

Loren,

Yes ABYC does recommend (key word) that a fuse or fusible link be within 72 inches of the batteries (direct source) supplying a circuit. There is another recomendation for fusible links within 40 inches if not directly connected to a source of power. Are these reasonable recomendation? Yes, are they always followed? No. Would I ding you for it? No. After all, it is a recomendation as all of ABYC guidelines are. Some are good, some are OK and some are for those folks that have nothing else to do on their boat but spend money.

Every electrical system is different and must be looked at individually as a system. Most boats I look at have so many other hazerdous electrical conditions that a fuse in the main feed would be a miracle, but of no help to most of these folks with absolutely horrendous/atrocious wiring practices. If I see a fusible link in the main feed, then I know somebody was doing their home work and has used at least SOME standard/guidelines. I would also expect to see the AC ground and DC ground tied togethe per ABYC, but do I see this as well? Rarely if at all.

The key is to size the wire correctly (includes TO and FROM the device and use marine tinned wire), avoid chafe and bundling, and use good connectors. Chafe will eat through a wire in little time and bundling wire reduces its current carrying capacity, especially if near heat such as the engine (which is usually where the batteries are located.....). The exception to this recomendation is the starter circuit as the inrush maybe 500-1,000 amps depending on engine, temp., oil viscosity, starter age, wire size, etc. However, there is talk of adding the starter circuit to the recomendation due to the number of fires on the starter circuit (see above - poor wiring practices).

As for a surveyor knowing this ABYC recomendaton? I have looked at dozens and dozens of other surveyor's reports and I think I recall one that actually recommended this ABYC standard. Most surveyors have no clue about engineering or electricity and their reports reflect this. In fact, many surveyors are just plain poor surveyors. Do I look for it? Yes. Do I ding the folks that don't have it? No, just recommend it be done after the other 100 wiring violations be corrected.

Word to the wise, of all the surveys I've conducted, by far (triple?) the most problematic aspect is the electrical wiring and installation.....sea cocks are next (distant 2nd),with engines a close 3rd. No wonder electrical fires account for 30-35% of boat insurance claims, with sinking a distant 10-15%,

Reference:

ABYC E-11.12.1 Overcurrent Protection - For DC Systems

E-11.12.1.1 Battrey Charging sysetms

E-11.12.1.2 Overcurrent protection device location

Exceptions - 1. Cranking motor conductors

John M.

 

[jmoses]

ABYC Standards for sale

As an aside, I believe any one may purchase individual excepts of the ABYC standards. Just go to:

http://store.abycinc.org/merchant.mvc

They averege 40.00 per excerpt (AC/DC systems = 140.00).

John M.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

No, just recommend it be done after the other 100 wiring violations be corrected.

Based on my recent survey experience, a surveyor's recommendation becomes a mandatory action item for the insurer. So recommendations can be very expensive for the owner.

 

[jmoses]

Recommendations? Depends on Surveyor

As a surveyor, I classify my recommendations into three categories:

1.) Critical (i.e. safety, regulatory or extremely hazardous - must comply ASAP)
2.) Important (i.e. for increased safety/reliability of the vessel and POB)
3.) Finding (i.e. important information - new paint, new electronics, deteriorated wood work, old sails, etc.).

To make it even easier, I color code my three categories (red, = critical orange = important and black = finding). Therefore, it's easy to skim my report and find what has to be complied with to meet basic safety standards & eliminate hazards. After that, it's between the insurance company and the vessel's owner as to what has to be done.

Each surveyor has their own way of doing things.....most lump everything together and that's unfortunate as then everything will most likely become "Must comply" items. Shame on the surveyor for his/her laziness as it has now cost you extra $$$. I never expect all of my items to be complied with....it's just not practical. However, I lesson my chance of lawsuits (and educate the boat owner) by doing my homework and listing everything I find - good or bad. I'm known to list 70 - 80 items in my summary.

I am very clear in my "Summary and Conclusion" section EXACTLY what each category means: "Critical" must be complied with ASAP, "Important" is in the best interest of the vessel/owner, and "Finding" is just that, I found something of interest and may or may not require attention i.e. FYI.

Each insurance company is also different - I've seen some that could care less what's on the report and others that will require everything be complied with in 90 days.

In fact, next week I'm surveying a 44 Swan that some chap had surveyed Aug 2005 in which the insurance company rejected his purchase survey done by a SAMS accredited surveyor.....it was a pretty poor survey to say the least.

Lesson learned? All surveyors are not alike, many are poor communicators, and do shop around for a good one...they are out there. Always ask for a sample survey FIRST to see what you are paying for. And by all means, check the surveyor's credentials! SAMS or NAMS is no garauntee of anything other than they paid their $400 dues to the organization.

Example: the above Swan 44 owner had an 8 page (2 pages of which were disclaimers) "Purchase Survey" which was nothing more than an 'Inventory list' of gear on board. He paid $660.00 for that - a total RIP OFF!

John M.

 

[Geoff Johnson]

No offense, but that's why I would want to hire you if I were buying a boat, but not for a C&V survey on a boat that I have owned for 9 years.

 

[jmoses]

Bit odd?

I guess it's a bit odd to want different surveying standards on a boat depending on if purchasing or a C&V........Think about it - How can I put a value on a boat if I don't know what condition it is in and its asociated level of risk for an insurance claim (including sinking, fire and death)? I have to cover myself because lawsuits result from taking double standard approach such as this.

I survey a boat for the same price regardless of what it's for (purchase or C&V). Nor do I conduct 'different' surveys depending on the circumstances.....you get a full bore in depth evaluation survey and walk away with quite a bit of info on your boat (with in reason). Would you expect two standards from a Doctor? Lawyer? Home builder? Car mechanic? Teacher? Hmmm....think it over ....Hey, just do a partial oil change, glance at the ignition and disregard the "Check Engine" light, I know they are all fine, I've owned the car for 10 years. Thanks! Boats degrade and things break especially on older boats.

I can't begin to tell you what I find on boats that have been 'meticulously maintained since new by same owner' and 'in bristol condition by last surveyor'. We can all learn something and nobody is perfect when it comes to boats - myself included. Sometimes an outside, unbiased objective eye is a good thing.

Also, keep in mind, many boat owners do not have a clue as to fire extinguishers, excersizing sea cocks, Type IV devices, exhaust leaks, maintaining batteries, etc. They must be looked after especially close by folks such as myself. I certainly don't need the USCG on my back either.

It's amazing that people want to skimp on an engine inspection, rig look-see or a full survey (even on a purchase!). Granted, if for insurance, it may not all be necessary, but I don't want my name associated with an engine failure, rig topple, vessel sinking, or worse yet, an injury or death. Surveyors are supposed to operate under a legal term called "Due dilligence" - unfortunately many can't even spell it. As a reult, I require an engine start/stop/run, a deck level rig inspection (minimum), operate all sea cocks (amazing how many don't work or are in failure mode), all safety gear is taken out and thouroughly inspected, electrical system gets a good once over per my last post about the amazing electrical wizardry of many boat owners and trades people. It all should be looked at one way or another. Laziness or being cheap is no excuse for negligence.

If a boat sinks after I just surveyed it, who is going to be on my case? Both the owner and the insurance company with a team of lawyers like starving jackles. As a result, I conduct 'full surveys' only. No partial surveys (unless under direction from an insurance company) or 'C&V's'; it's all or nothing. Many a surveyor's bread and butter is with these 45 minute boat walk through C&Vs and inventory reports done in 30 minutes for 12.oo a foot and it shows. They do several a day.

In fact, I've done re-surveys for folks whose insurance company rejected their recent surveyor's C&V reports as well. Sad they get stuck like that. But again, do your homework or have low expectations as a result.

All too often people want 'On the cheap' and I pass them by as I can tell what they are looking for, especially if there first question on the phone is "How much for a survey?" They will most likely be looking for an easy ride to pass the C&V and then request I put their estimated value of the boat on the report; being cheap and lack of boat maintenance is highly correlated in my opinion. I like to sleep at night.

I certinly can't complain with close to 98% client closure rate (only turn down this year was a cheap lawyer - go figure?). Somebody is doing something right I suppose....either my customers are doing their homework (good for them!), I'm doing my job fairly well (horn toot) or some combination there of. Or is it blind luck? What ever it is I like it. In fact, the Cayman Islands Maritime Registry just appointed my company to admeasure some of their less than 24 meter yachts here in the San Francisco area for registy renewals...not bad eh?

Anyway, enough about surveyors, I'm off the clock.

John M.