Brightwork glue?

Having just completed forward hatch and handrail projects, my confidence level with brightwork projects has increased slightly and I am now considering tackling a rebuild of my sliding companionway hatch.

I've gone through in detail the various postings on this matter, and I have one question whose answer I haven't seen (yet) mentioned: what kind of glue does one use for the base laminates used on the sliding hatch? I imagine I'll likely use 1/8" or 1/4" laminates that need glueing and bening into shape, but am at a loss as to what kind of glue is best here.

I've seen a variety of ideas on this (epoxy, gorilla glue, resorcinol glue, etc...), but wanted to hear it from this group what you thought worked well.

Thanks for your help!

Nothing wrong with good old Elmer's wood glue if you keep it dry or seal it. Wood strip canoes have been made with Elmers for years sealing in polyester resin. I have no connections with Elmers...though I do live in Wisconsin.

I am a fan of using poly resin as adhesive and sealer.

ml

Resorcinol would be my first choice, and epoxy my last. Two years ago, I would have said epoxy. A good friend, who knows much more about woodworking than I do, gave me a variety of articles, including one which went into detail documenting epoxy failures in exterior marine use, and was able, in many instances, to point to resorcinol joints on the same boat with no issues. The cause seems to be a combination of heat damage - epoxies start having issues around 125 F, and moisture intrusion at some point, often an edge, that would be the beginning of the end. The author pointed out that epoxy is still a great boat building and repair material, but not for things like direct horizontal sun and water exposure on your deck, like a hatch or bowsprit. Here's a link to a .pdf of the article:

http://home.comcast.net/~ericson-yachts/Epoxy-construction-ClassicBoatAppendix.pdf

Wow, thank you David!
That is one of the best articles I've read on Epoxy in a while. I've never had any issues with the Epoxy projects I've done but then again, I can't really think of one that is subject to heat, sunlight, or enough time to know for sure. I'd always heard of Resorcinol glues but never used them. Looks like I'll be calling Jamestown Distributors and trying some out! Very cool. RT

Epoxy was used in my sliding hatch laminations. It's been about 9
years and counting and it's as good as new. It would be my only
choice of an adhesive.
<a href="http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/?action=view&current=slidinghatch.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/slidinghatch.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I was wondering how long it was going to take Martin to reply

I know really good long lasting results can and are had with epoxy, as Martin points to his extensive first hand experiences. I'm getting ready to repair rotted out coaming boxes....with epoxy. That said, the bow sprit I must build sometime soon is getting cold weather resorcinol (cold weather type can "fill" tiny irregularities the normal temp. version can't). I find the whole epoxy failure thing a real head scratcher - a lot of success out there, but I'm going the conservative route on this one, figuring I can't go wrong with resorcinol for my substantial exterior projects

I can also point to the countless cold molded boats built with epoxy
that have no issues. Hell, the keel for Scherezade (153,000 lbs) is held on with keelbolts bonded in it.

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/scheherazade/

Conditions affect choice?

I wonder if the level of exposure affects this. My hatch is totally exposed 24/7 (no dodger or hood). Looking over the article, many of the examples provided seem to be brightwork under constant, direct weathering.

I imagine that the old one fell apart faster than it needed to due to contruction methodology (laminate edges were painted, but not well sealed) and that the glue question may be a case of six of one, half dozen of the other.

Martin: beautiful hatch. Is any of that rabbetted to hold the laminate? I couldn't see the edges of the laminate.

I think it is totally tied to weather exposure combined with heat and probably that first tiny bit of failure that allows the elements to start their destruction. The cold molded epoxy techniques Martin mentions are outstanding and have proven to work and last very well. This is where I find my head wanting to explode because of what appears to be conflicting results of the product. Honestly, if it isn't something I was putting on my deck in direct sun/weather, I would, without a doubt, use epoxy. All my fiberglass repair work (including deck core repair) was (and future will be) done with epoxy. So, where does this leave you? You probably can use either product with good results, if you do everything just right...

Emerald said:

So, where does this leave you? You probably can use either product with good results, if you do everything just right...

Click to expand...

As a good friend of mine told me recently: it's the Indian, not the arrow.

ignacio said:

I wonder if the level of exposure affects this. My hatch is totally exposed 24/7 (no dodger or hood). Looking over the article, many of the examples provided seem to be brightwork under constant, direct weathering.

I imagine that the old one fell apart faster than it needed to due to contruction methodology (laminate edges were painted, but not well sealed) and that the glue question may be a case of six of one, half dozen of the other.

Martin: beautiful hatch. Is any of that rabbetted to hold the laminate? I couldn't see the edges of the laminate.

Click to expand...

Ignacio,

Yes, the frame is rabbetted to take the panel, and it's all glued with
epoxy. I detailed the construction of this part elsewhere on this site.

For what it's worth, epoxy is the adhesive of choice on all my dad's
cold molded boats-not resourcinal. Pictures are worth a thousand
words. Here's one:
<a href="http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/?action=view&current=Hetdeck1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/Hetdeck1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

To give you some perspective, that 10 sided skylight costs as much to build as say... your current average mid-range Ericson.

Martin King said:

For what it's worth, epoxy is the adhesive of choice on all my dad's
cold molded boats-not resourcinal. Pictures are worth a thousand
words. Here's one:
<a href="http://s128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/?action=view&current=Hetdeck1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p200/cruizin31/Hetdeck1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Click to expand...

I've seen this picture before, and it is just gorgeous. There is no doubt that done right, epoxy works well.

Emerald said:

I've seen this picture before, and it is just gorgeous. There is no doubt that done right, epoxy works well.

Click to expand...

Drool...

I used epoxy with all mine as well, which figures, because I took all my queues from Martin... ...Imitation is the highest form of flattery, right?

Everything is between 3-4 years old and is holding up beautifully. I do think it is key to keep water/UV at bay through several coats of varnish topped with several coats of a two-part finish like Bristol, and to recoat periodically (every year or two). I don't cover anything when not in use, so everything is exposed to the elements 100% of the time.

Martin,

The name of the boat in your picture is......? Don't keep us in suspense.

Yes, that is Hetairos. Launched in 1993, she was built by A&R in
Lemwerder, Germany. This 125' cold molded ketch has taken her
owner and family around the world in style and comfort.

Ok, here we go

Would this stuff work? I ordered it a few days ago before all the dialogue on the subject (seemed to have other uses and was relatively cheap).

http://www.amazon.com/00203-Weldwoo...UTF8&s=industrial&qid=1283972784&sr=8-1-spell

If not, I'm driving by a West Marine later today and can probably pickup some West System stuff.

Next (dumb newbie brightwork) questions:

I'm going to rabbett my frame as Martin has it (I imagine this is a standard technique with hatches, but my old hatch definitely didn't have it).

1. Should I assume that the laminates should be glued BEFORE bending? Or is this a little like lasagna: bend into place, apply glue, bend next lam into place, apply glue, bend next lam, etc....

2. Once the panel is all bent, glued, and cured, then it needs to fit into the rabbets of the frame. Is there a technique to ensuring the cut on the lams and from the rabbetting bit on the router is made correctly given the curvature of the panel and the slight angle the lams will have when entering the rabbett of the frame? Maybe the rabbett needs to be angled as well (sounds like a new router may be needed?).

Yeah, pretty standard noob questions about woodworking, I know. Would really appreciate the wisdom here though. I'm anticipating some gaps, so have started collecting some teak flour.


Best,

Ignacio

Ignacio,

Don't use that plastic resin stuff, use epoxy. You laminate the
panel first-to a form. Once that's done, you can move on
to doing the frame. Here:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=5960&referrerid=28

A standard rabbetting bit in a router is not going to work here. As you
are guessing correctly, you are going to have a bevel on the rabbett
and should cut it on a tablesaw. It's unlikely you are going to get
it absolutely dead on, and if there is a gap, epoxy is your friend here
as are test cuts on scrap wood.

I had a heck of a time figuring that one out too. I would definitely defer to Martin's expertise here, but took a slightly different approach myself. I laminated the top the same as Martin - on a curved form, but the frame is probably where I deviated. Without any blueprints or other guidance, the approach I came up with was to use an inside frame rabeted to an outside frame - this provided plenty of 'base' for the top to set on to. Since all sides of the frame were beveled 15-degrees, I used a 15-degree router bit to bevel the edges of the top. The idea was that once assembled, the top would be 'captured' by the bevel and would be impossible to come out of the frame. This required gluing the frame together with the top at the same time, because if the frame was pre-glued, the top couldn't be set in place (the lower edges of the top would be wider than the frame opening due to the bevel). There was lots of pre-fitting the individual members, prior to the actual gluing to insure everything would fit correctly. But in the end, it all fit beautifully, and is still solid as a rock after 3+ years. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around how to cut rabets into a curved piece, and the dado's to receive them - and would love an explanation.

Anyway, hope this helps!