Taking a 38-200 offshore

I bought my 1990 38-200 for the purpose of cruising the Caribbean and maybe beyond. I love the boat and have started investing in the equipment needed for cruising.
A friend of mine who's worked for the Moorings for years told me that he would never take a boat as light as the E38, with a spade rudder, offshore. He says I need a shoal keel in the 20-25,000 lb range.
Any opinions on this?

I would disagree. In many ways a full-keel boat with its protected rudder, etc is a better choice for offshore. However in some ways its not. Generally full-keels are slower and don't go to weather as wel as a E38 will. The E38 will likely move better in light winds as well which is, according to many world cruisers, what you face most of the time anyway. The spade rudder is a liability. It is easily damaged by a grounding or floating debris impacts. How often cruisers actually damage spade rudders is a good question but I have never seen a statistic on this. I think I would accept the liability/risk of the spade and take my chances.

It all comes down to what you can afford. Given my choice of heavy-duty offshore boats I would hands down choose a Valiant 40/42 I have done the research and they seem to be absolutely bulletproof with no faults (except the FRP blister problems of early boats) They also have a skeg-hung rudder, a better solution to impact protection than a full keel. Unfortunately Valiants, even used ones are unbelieveably expensive.

Still, if an E38 is what you can afford or currently own then understanding its limits/faults and performing the neccessary upgrades to prepare for offshore use makes sense. Many, many people have gone cruising in far lesser craft than Ericsons and been quite successful. The best boat in the world will certainly make survival of the worst case scenario more likely but it will never be a substitute for prudent choices regarding weather, navigation, planning, etc.

I have never cruised or "gone offshore" I hope to someday and it may be in my E38. I think its better to make the best of what you have and go cruising if its really what you want to do than to sit on the couch and worry about buying the ultimate boat and putting off years of your dreams to wait for it.

Just my 2cents, RT

E-38 for offshore work.

I agree with Rob,
The PO of my E380 sailed across the Atlantic from the UK to the Caribbean. He definitely got equipment such as EPIRBS, Life raft, engine spare parts, GPS, and others. No expense was spared on safety and redundancy. The spade ruder is a liability, but if this is too much of a risk, perhaps trace your route to reduce your offshore leg, perhaps by island hoping.

The Ericson 38 is a tough boat; I think she can handle it.

Ismael Zapater
San Juan.

With reference to the opinion of a charterboat friend... his opinion is worth about what you pay here for opinions... maybe more... maybe...


Some "long keel" boats are well suited for blue water and some are not: same for fin keel boats.

The Ericsons are well-built, well-engineered, and designed for handling under sail. That's the main thing.

Us NW sailors always reference the Cascade 29, 36, and 42 -- all with (gasp!) fin keels and spade rudders (there is a skeg on the 42) -- ALL with double or triple digit numbers of ocean crossings and circumnavigations in the last 40 years. All are fairly light weight solid-layup hulls with shallow bilges, i.e. arc-shaped midsections.

Note that even a stock V-40 or a PSC will need some upgrades or gear additions for an ocean crossing.



Loren

The rudder thing

On any seagoing boat, it is mandatory to carry some kind of emergency steering gear-not just a tiller (as provided by Ericson should the steering fail), but some kind of actual "rudder"-there are many variations on this-even a locker door lashed to a spinnaker or whisker pole-but it is something to bring with you offshore!!

S

Offshore boat prep

And, since Seth mentioned a spare rudder, that makes a nice segue into boat preperations for being more self-sufficient offshore. Print the info from the web or source a paper pamphlet copy from your regional/national offshore racing authority of the Catagory Requirements. This is an excellent reference for checklisting ANY boat for "blue water", regardless of racing asperations.
This was dicussed also on this earlier thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=1648&referrerid=28
and more info:
http://www.sailing.org/default.asp?MenuID=o6/~GX28zoMoD~`RtK/DVc454NICE_1OIDP`V_5PHFsFnNoxKWtu
Cheers,
Loren

Ericson Offshore

All,

This may be not what your looking for but isnt their 2 Ericson 29's sailing around the world right now. I have heard of a 27 that sailed to Hawaii and back regulary. I guess it depends on how big your cohonies are to what type of offshore sailing you do. I would never be on a small boat in the middle of the ocean. I regulary read in Latts and Atts about small boat circumnavigations. A E 38 looks like a great boat and a solid sailing platform. I think it would be big enough for me.

Hmmm next step E38 around the world.......I like the sound of it....

Blue water survey

Another thing to consider is to find a highly experienced surveyor and ask for a "blue water" survey. I'm sure it will be worth the expense. The surveyors tend to orient a part of the survey to the vessel's intended use anyway. I'm planning to do that in a few years well before we head for the Caribbean.

Thanks

Thanks to you all. I feel better about taking my 38-200 off shore. The TAFG was a major selling point for me as well as everything mentioned in this thread. The blade rudder seems like the biggest concern. Is it possible to reinforce it or retrofit a skeg support?

Check this out

For fueling the fire about suitable offshore voyaging boats, see the text below. This was taken from the Front (HOME) page of Sailing Anarchy (www.sailinganarchy.com). I neglected to post the photo of this boat on a trailer, but take a moment to see boat and how it seems to be configured. For more, you can go the designer' website (below).

BRING IT!!


40 The Hard Way?

LC40 N°3: Bryan Cooke, Auckland, New Zealand, to start building the third LC40’. This down-under distinctive feature is to reach the OSR Category 0 rules, that is “for races where yachts must be completely self-sufficient for very extended periods of time, capable of withstanding heavy storms and prepared to meet serious emergencies without the expectation of outside assistance.”
Bryan intend to enter the GOC in 2007: The Global Ocean Challenge, solo/double multi-stop circumnavigation race, is a new initiative launched by sailors Josh Hall and Brian Hancock.
François LUCAS
Architecture Navale
32 rue Kervégan 44000 Nantes
Site: http://www.fr-lucas.com

S

No shrouds on rudders?

Seth,
Thanks for the link!
I used to drop in often to watch them construct Ocean Planet.... which has since proven itself 'round the world.
I refer of course to SCBW in Portland, builders of Magic Carpet and Rage.
All have proven themselves as safe and fast offshore boats in *all* conditons -- "Carpet" for way over two decades. Spade rudders, all.

The engineering and construction are what count. Whether you want the spar or shaft supported by struts or wires, or more strength in the "spar" itself is a personal and esthetic (and engineered cost) choice...

One might as well ponder why the keel and rudder do not have shrouds. Or how a Nonsuch catboat can sail without above deck support for it's mast.

As to concerns about the rudder, drop it and make sure the shaft and armature condition are as solid as designed by B King in the first place. One could, if really worried, even move up to a new rudder and carbon fiber shaft... "For a Few Dollars More."

To some very small extent, I must admit that limited peace of mind can be prearranged with infusions of $$.
OTOH, the E-38 is a strong boat from the git-go.

(Nothing like stirring the pot, before morning coffee, even!)

Loren

IS X an offshore boat......

Ok I have to weigh in here.....

In the 40k+ miles we did offshore, there was one common thing about all of the boats out there...........

They were out there doing it.

First what does offshore mean to you. Sailing in the roaring 40's? The milk run through the islands of the pacific? Going to Catalina island from San Diego? All of that is "Offshore"

Smallest yacht we regularly got together with: 17 foot decked over German canoe, Peter Pan.

Sailed in Company with a HR 53 for a big chunck of the pacific....

Catalina 30, yep, Hunter 36 Yep, Vancouver 27 (Some of our best cruising friends, very happy with it.) Cold Molded British 38 footer fraglie as an egg was how the owner put the thickness and structural suitability of the boat.

Know your boat, know your limits, then get out there and do it.

KNow your boat means taking it apart to me, having touched all the parts, knowing the rudder shaft, knowing every inch of the rig, knowing every foot of fuel hose, where it goes and why. Now if you know your boat, you are going to find quite a few things that you can do differently, better, or that need to be fixed. Fix those that need to be fixed, add only the equiptment that makes the trip better FOR YOU. Don't add a bunch of shit just cause a bunch of people say you should have it. Remember the old zen kone? Everything you own owns you? It realy should be everything you own you have to maintain.

GO, Take reasonable precautions and learn how to fix shit..... Really fix it, not just write a check to someone else to fix it...... Then go see the world, get out of your country and go to someone elses, it is extreamely freeing to the mind and the spirit.

A lot of people want to sell you stuff because you are going to need it offshore, most of it is complete shit, that you are never going to use...... Or if you try to use is going to break.....

Stuff to take with you:
1> Some clothing, for when there are other people around.
2> Some good books, maybe 2, maybe 25, but you are going to need them. Really good books, soul food books....
3> Your soul
4> Your eyes
5> Your ears
6> Your heart
7> A good hat
8> A good pair of shoes, cause you are going to want to walk around the strange places you visit.

Everything else you can borrow or share...... (Note that the boat isn't even in the top 10 list above, lots of people have boats, too big a boats, can't sail them by themselves, so you can help them if you want....)

The thing that determins whether you are ready or not ready to go offshore is YOU, not the boat.

An e-38 for offshore, freaking palace, more than big enough for a 6 person crew. Go have fun..... Hell some of my best friends did it with 5 people on a home built Cascade 29, 6 years in the south pacific....... And you want to know if you can do it in an e-38......PLEASE

Really the boat that you have is the best boat to go in..... And I haven't even surveyed it for you....

Why second guess your dreams, make them happen, to those that tell you it is impossible...

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
Alice in Wonderland.

If this post doesn't seem to make sense try this: http://www.svpneuma.com/living_dream.html#9
If you still want to "get it" and can't seem to understand my strange reasoning start an e-mail thread with me, you will find it on the contact pages of my site.....

Guy

I'm with Guy on this one.

Guy has it, once again, Spot ON!

Best ever!

This has to be the best post yet in E-land-Thanks Guy-for boiling it right down on all levels. No argument from me, that's for sure.

Back to rudder thing briefly: Apart from Guy's very good advice I think Will asked about looking into adding a skeg in front of the rudder. Not needed-the boat is just fine as long as you fully inspect your rudder, through hull and shaft. Yes-carry some kind of spare technology for the worst case scenario. A skeg is NO gurantee against this. I have lost a skeg while halfway to Venezuela from Tortola! The rudder survived, but not the skeg. With the technolgy for good navigationakl awareness these days-you should never be hitting any reefs, and the only risk is hitting something offshore-but again, a skeg is no guarantee the rudder will be protected, and who is to say you will lose the rudder if you hit a submerged object. You might, or you might bend it. Or you might have no damage. Or, you could tear away the skeg. Be vigilant and enjoy the trip!!

Guy-thanks again!

OK we all agree, but....

OK, we all agree that many good boats can sail offshore successfully if the captain/crew have the requisite sailing skills/experience, etc. And we can all agree that an Ericson 38 in good condition will likely be fine in most conditions. In fact, given the history of Ericson 27s and 30s making significant passages, probably most, if not all, models of Ericsons are built well enough to manage some offshore sailing. And it's probably better to take the plunge than to sit on shore with regrets down the road for not having tried.

BUT, having agreed on that, can we take this to another level, and be a bit more helpful for those who want to prepare for this, and add some spice to the discussion for others.

Specifically, knowing Ericsons as well as many on this site do, aside from the skeg/rudder issue (which has been addressed well above), what are the other most likely areas of vulnerability for Ericsons, and what are the most cost-effective additional modifications that one should consider for the various Ericson models to increase the likelihood of safe passage offshore?

I look forward to this more detailed, and hopefully also more helpful and interesting discussion.

Frank.

Most of what you seek is here, grasshopper

We have had several discussions here on "offshore" (sorry Guy-I think we are talking the equivalent to sailing to Bermuda or offshore to the west Indies for discussion's sake)-conditions where you could encounter some extreme weather,but not for weeks on end (ala Southern Ocean).

Do a search, but the general topics are:
1). increase cockpit draining capacity
2). Add runners (for the 2 spreader E-boats)-use when needed.
3). One piece hatch for heavy air-with ability to secure from inside the boat.
4). Storm sails
5) Life raft
6). BIG portable bilge pump

All are the minimum needed for this kind of voyaging, but luckily most are easy and relatively cheap to accomplish. No item here should cost more than abouot $500.00 (except about $1,500 total for a storm trysail and storm jib).


Helpful but not totally req'd are things we have also talked about in the past: redundant charging/batteries, a watermaker, maybe a portable generator, and of course, radar and redundant GPS. Many are not so cheap-good thing they are not required...

A great idea is to use the ORC Category 1 or 0 requirement for offshore races like Bermuda (Cat 0 is around the world)-this is in effect a safety checklist...should be under US sailing, or a search for "ORC requirements",or here is a link: http://www.yachtworks.net/Store/safety.htm.


Any specific, hit me. If I neglected something, mea cupla.

Seeya

Cheers,

Seth,
Thanks for your reply. As a relative newcomer to this site, I'm still learning about what is relevant vs. what has already been covered.
As always, your tips in your response are helpful suggestions for areas to upgrade for offshore.
Thanks again.
Frank.

Point us at that $500 life raft!

Seriously, great thread. I have to send my wife to that link for Guy & Meilssa's cruising website. I hope she'll go 'round Vancouver Island with me someday. Maybe down the coast to Portland.

Best regards,

E 38 Offshore

My website (http://members.toast.net/captron/) has an article I wrote about our boat buying decision process that included comparing various designs. (http://members.toast.net/captron/comparing_various_boat_designs.htm)

There's a spreadsheet at the bottom of the article if you want to download it.
(http://members.toast.net/captron/Captain_Ron/Potential Next Boat.xls)

I think the E38 is more than adequate for going offshore given appropriate preparation of boat and crew. Don't get too bogged down in design details either. Most boats can go cruising offshore given enough preparation.
The E38 will just sail faster and handle easier than most.

We sail on the east coast but mainly Florida and the Bahamas. One fine day we may continue on to the actual Caribbean ... we've been as far south as Providenciales in the Turks and Caicos although we like the Bahamas so much we may never go farther.

Runners?

Seth,

I understand most of your recommendations, but I'm curious, why the runners?

I've always considered them a performance thing, or something to use if you are flying a staysail. I can see their necessity if you have entirely inline shrouds, but most Ericsons I've seen have forward and aft lowers. I guess I can see how they would still add some stability, but its not something I really ever considered before.

Thanks for your input,

Cory Bolton
'84 E-35III "Balancing Act"
Portland, OR