Surveying an E 38-200

Chris Miller

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Definitely go elsewhere

Wow! GOod for you and your family about the new addition!

We had the dude from down on Second Street in Eastport (right next to the old "Little Jabins" yacht yard) do it. Martin sombody-or-other was his name. Not quality work! We were on vacation when they did it, and they drilled a hole in the sole to get to one of the bolts-- never fixed the hole; they tied it up poorly and it got knocked around in a heavy breeze which beat up our rub rail-- they straitened it, but still not stellar; they didn't do the grounding re-wire that we asked for. Just overall not good work.
If you're coming down here, I'd suggest the guys at Z's or over at Spring Cove. We've had good experiences with both.
Chris
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Thanks Chris. I was a little nervous about taking a 5 day cruise with both kids but it went quite well. My depthfinder was out of commission as well which made the approach in torrential downpour into Havre De Grace interesting. Local electronics shop was able to fix it by just replacing the lcd.
The yard you are referring too was that Bobby Muller's? I had done some work with Jabins yard over on Edgewood rd off Back creek, not the eastport side, and their prices were a bit steep. Was thinking of looking at Whitehall. Mine might be bit tougher as the keel will need to be blocked as it is not a wing. I need to make some phone calls on this as I have noooo idea what a yard is going to charge me.
 
Chris Miller

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Call John White

You might want to try calling John White. He has a yacht yard up that way... I have not had any personal experience with his yard, but I do know that he knows his stuff as far as boats and sailing go! I'm not sure what his prices would be like, but it's definitely worth the call.
Chris
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
They cut a hole in the floor?

Chris wrote: "...they drilled a hole in the sole to get to one of the bolts-- never fixed the hole..."

WHY did they drill a hole? My yard dropped my keel without so much as scratching the wood, so I know it can be done. As for cost, they were doing the blisters for $5000 at the time and it was another $1000 to drop and rebed the keel.

It was sure weird seeing my sailboat without her keel during the job. Notice anything missing in this first photo?
 

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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Hey thanks for the pics. Steve I have a question for you about those fixed ports from lewmar you replaced. Did the standard 4R and 4L versions fit correctly? They look like they should from the website but I have not taken specific measurements yet. Another question I have is about the engine control cables you replaced. Can you refresh me again as to what kind of cable you used and how you modified the run? I remember the factory turns were/are too tight.

Chris, I know John White. Well actually, I know of him I should say, not like were buds or anything but I have raced against him enough. He owns Whitehall yacht yard which is where I was thinking of trying. Thanks.
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
As for the Lewmar ports - I found the 4R (or was it 4L?) to be a perfect fit with the cut out on my 1989 model. As I mentioned the profile of the extrusion was a bit different, but other than that it worked fine. Which leaves me wondering whether those who did not find it to be a good fit have older model boats? Could those have used a different Lewmar port?

The replacement engine cable controls I used were Teleflex TFxtream (sp?) CC63316 for the throttle and CC63313 for the clutch. These were 1 foot shorter each than the originals, which seemed a bit long. The best way to appreciate the change in the routing that I made is shown in the pictures in my earlier post, which you can find by doing a search on "Improved control cable run". The key to making it work was making a bracket out of aluminum angle to hold the cable off the surface of the wheel. This allowed me to maintain an 8" or greater bend radius, rather than the 3" or so that resulted from the factory installation.
 
Chris Miller

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Follow the leader...

Yep, I've followed JW around the course enough to figure he must know what he's doing... right? I wasn't sure which yard was his having never been there.

Steve- just put our keel drop into the slot marked "crummy marine service experiences"--- you may have to push it down a little to get it to fit, that slot is pretty full!

Chris
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Thanks Steve. I am going to pull one of those fixed ports and see if a plastics guy who is local can rebuild. He is really good with this stuff in fact hatches and ports are his specialty. But of course if the frame turns out to be too corroded on the inside I may end up trying to replace. My guy here deals with some other shop that can make new gaskets for windows that are NLA. They apparently make these seals for old car windows too. Hope to get to the cables very very soon too. That is something that definatley scares me if it goes...
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
It's not you, it's me...

Hi guys, I thought I would have a go a moving the feathering prop portions of this longish thread to an existing thread called "Prop Options" in the Maint and Mechanical forum. I accidently got one of Ted's shorter notes moved.
My appologies. I seldom exercise my position as a moderator...
which means I need to do it more... or less...
:(
Loren
 
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Roger Ware

Roger Ware

Member III
more on keel rebedding E38 200

Steve, my keel pics make an interesting juxtaposition with yours. My boat and keel were never completely separated, though, as yours were, just about 5". They put it all together with 5200, torqued it down, and now it doesn't leak a drop! Although, the yard did mention that after all this, when they picked it up to re-launch, they could see the aft end of the keel move a very small amount. There are only 2 bolts back there, and a long trailing edge, and the big wing (which Steve doesnt have) - has anyone suggested before that the aft end of the E38 200 keel was not well supported, particularly the wing keel?

Ted, you asked how much? $2000 Canadian dollars, including the haul and launch. Great yard, though. Like Steve, they dropped my keel without even scratching the (brand new) floor.

Roger, Kingston, ON
 
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Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
FWIW, when I had my keel rebedded, I checked with Pacific Seacraft (which was still making Ericsons at time) and was told to have the keel reattached with epoxy, not 5200, and to not leave the lead exposed to the elements for more than 10 minutes after cleaning the surface and before applying the epoxy. I know there seems to be some disagreement on this, but that's what I was told (and the keel joint has not reopened in about 8 years).
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
Funny you should mention that....

Probably the whole aft foot of my keel was separated from the hull when I bought my boat - though I didn't appreciate the importance of that at the time. And now that you mention it, when I told that to my yard that fact was part of their decision to use epoxy to rebed the keel. After that there was never again any separation, and the keel was dusty dry. I was told the bond was so strong that I didn't even need the keel bolts to hold the keel on, but being the skeptic that I am I never got around to undoing the nuts on the bolts to check this fact!

I had never heard it mentioned that the trailing edge of the keel - at least on the 38 - was not well supported by the bolts and TAFG, but our group experience seems to bear that out. The suggestion by PS to use epoxy would sure seem to suggest that they knew there was a problem.
 
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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
The lack of support around the trailing edge interests me. My joint is bad at the leading edge, but i am wondering if rebedding with epoxy would in any way improve the situation with the cabin sole retreating in that area. Steve did you notice any change or did the sagging in that area remain the same as prior to rebedding?
 
Roger Ware

Roger Ware

Member III
Steve, it seems to me that that the wing keel, with its heavier weight, and its greater moment of inertia (? someone will correct me if I have that wrong) poses even greater stress on the keel joint. I just hope that the 5200 in mine lasts for as long as I own the boat. Cheers, Roger
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
As for the sagging of the cabin floor, I'm sure that it did not get better after the keel was rebedded. So I wouldn't expect that to help anything. In fact, I could even imagine that having the aft edge of the keel pulled up tight might cause the cabin sole to flex even more!

The amount of sagging and separation of the aft edge of the keel probably isn't really a performance or structural issue by itself - I just worried that it wouldn keep the joint from remaining water tight. In fact initially I was reluctant to spend the extra money to do the keel joint when I was already paying for the unexpected expense of the blister repair. But the yard convinced me that it made no sense to worry about blisters if we weren't keeping the water out of the bilge too (which the original keel job was not).

Roger raises an interesting point about the wing keel, as I would indeed expect that to have more more lateral force on the joint than either the normal deep draft keel (which Ted has) or the shallow draft keel (which I had). Roger, are your wings a factory option or an after market job?
 
Roger Ware

Roger Ware

Member III
Steve, I have the factory wing keel, and a glorious curvaceous piece of work it is (and 4' wide from wing tip to wing-tip, if I recall correctly) - but I suspect the performance was never what was hoped for. Cheers, Roger.
 
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Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
It is not uncommon, so I have been told and have observed, for there to be keel separation at the bow because not only is it hard for designers to get bolts far enough forward but also a boat acts like a bow forcing up the ends as the stays are tensioned. The better the construction, the less the bending (hence the nickname for that well known brand - "Bendyteau").
 
footrope

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Perhaps sagging is the reason for the epoxy cracking at the trailing edge of my deep draft keel. See my April 2005 thread called: Cracked Keel - Trailing Edge. I eventually found out that the keel had been epoxy encapsulated, that the cracking was in the epoxy, and it had recurred despite repeated repairs to the area.

My keel-hull joint is all covered with epoxy, as the hull also has a barrier coat. The keel was re-bedded and keel bolts were torqued before the PO re-launched it in 1995. No sign of a problem at the joint itself 10 years later.
 
wheelerwbrian

wheelerwbrian

Member III
Leaking Ports

I was checking past discussions on leaking portlights (the big fixed ones) and came across this note and had a couple of questions.

* I had heard that the frames were originally bedded with 5200. Did you have difficulty getting them off?

*Did you have to replace the gasket material, and if so with what and/or where did you get it?

The glass on my boat looks ok, but the leaking has got to be stopped. I did a temporary fix by squirting a gasket around the frame last year, but it didn't survive the winter, so this is an early project of mine, once I finish getting all the crap done that needs to be done to get her back in the water.

Thanks in advance for all comments.

u079721 said:
On our boat I had to rebed all four large deadlights, the main hatch, and the forward hatch. None of the opening ports were a problem.

But a water stain might not actually mean the port is leaking, as I noticed that condensation that developed on the inside of the deadlights would collect at the lowest point, and drip down the woodwork, leaving the same stain you would expect if the deadlight were leaking from outside.

Still, I would probably suggest you rebed all of them eventually.

Oh, and watch out for leaking around the cockpit coaming box. Took me quite awhile to figure out that a small amount of moisture on the shelf in the lazarette came from the coaming box. I cut away the existing fiberglass tape holding the polyethylene box to the deck, roughed up all the surfaces, rebedded it with 5200, and reglassed it in. No problem after that.
Click to expand...
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
wheelerwbrian said:
I was checking past discussions on leaking portlights (the big fixed ones) and came across this note and had a couple of questions.

* I had heard that the frames were originally bedded with 5200. Did you have difficulty getting them off?

*Did you have to replace the gasket material, and if so with what and/or where did you get it?

The glass on my boat looks ok, but the leaking has got to be stopped. I did a temporary fix by squirting a gasket around the frame last year, but it didn't survive the winter, so this is an early project of mine, once I finish getting all the crap done that needs to be done to get her back in the water.

Thanks in advance for all comments.
Click to expand...


The ports weren't all that hard to remove, so I suspect they were bedded with polysulfide (3M 101). I found the best tool to do the job to be two thin putty knives, one straight and one bent at 90 degrees. I just hammered them into the gap to break the seal, and then hammered them around the perimeter of the port.

In my case the gaskets were sound, and just rebedding with 3m 101 did the trick. When you remove them be sure to check whether the cut out might be too big. I describe elsewhere on this board that my cut out was a bit too large to give enough surface area for the caulk, so I built up one edge with Marine Tex to give a better surface.

Good luck.
 
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