Surveying an E 38-200

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Gale Sails

Hi Geoff,

Sorry if my comments were overzealous-I get that way sometimes, but my heart is in the right place!

The guy from the Evil Empire is making solid points, and their idea of the twin halyard set up is a good one-if I did that on your boat, I would have some Spectra running backstays made up with the drop in T-ball tangs (easy in-easy out). I would locate these just opposite and behind the halyard exit (or inner forstay attach point), and rig them whenever setting off on an offshore passage. because of the fwd. and aft lower shrouds, this is the only reason to need running backs. This will help with the sag problem and provide support to the mast at the "new" stress point created by your storm rig.

The real advantage of this over the Gale Sail is having the forsail farther aft (somewhat for balance, but mostly to keep you off the bow). Again, the CE thing is so minor as to be insignificant. Rigged up this way, I actually like it better than the Gale Sail-for the reason they stated.

Good times!
S
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
But the North guy doesn't say what you are supposed to attach the tack point to to get it farther aft. BTW, the other thing I like about the Gale Sail concept is that if I sell the boat, I can take it with me and use it on another.
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Gale Sails

That is why they are the Evil Empire! But seriously, you will have to through-bolt a large padeye roughly 1/3 of the way back from the stem to the mast (1/3 of the J measurement back) on centerline in the area just forward of the hatch where the non-skid is missing. You will note the straight line area is wide enough for a section of track to be fitted also (I did that). Below deck, you will want to make up a wire tie down which will be secured to the forward portion of the structural grid. DO NOT attempt to apply any significant halyard/inner forstay loads here without tying it down to the grid!

This is your attachment point for whatever you rig up if you go that route...But you are right-you CAN take the Gale Sail with you!
Cheers,
S
 

Geoff Johnson

Fellow Ericson Owner
So we've come full circle and are installing an inner stay without calling it that!

BTW, I forget, who is not the Evil Empire? Doyle?
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Evil Empire

AKA the "Blue Menace"--just a humorous reference to the largest sailmaker in the world....They are certainly great sails-as long as you are not buying the "offshore" made products-they are pricey, though..

I guess you can say we have come full circle, but the decision of which route to go may have more to do with how much offshore sailing you do, how physically able you (or your designated bowperson) are, etc.

Both are workable solutions....

Can we kill this one?

Seeya!
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Survey for E-38

I had the survey done and we found a lot of little items in need of attention. Nothing thats a deal breaker for me, but some items which will warrant further price negotiation. I got the survey in pdf form and am going to try and post it. I don't know if it will work though. You folks have been such a big help. I appreciate it. Should be settling on the boat by month end...Let me know what you folks think.
 

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u079721

Contributing Partner
Survey Results

Some random thoughts when reading the survey.

Batteries. Gel cells may be dead because the original engine alternator has too high a float voltage, or maybe the battery charger did as well (14.5 rather than 14.1). When replacing them I would opt for regular flooded cells, as the location under the starboard settee makes them easy to service.

CNG. I don't think the surveyor is right on this one, as it would make no sense for the ABYC guidelines to specify having a separate compartment with overboard discharge for CNG, which is lighter than air and would not go down the overboard discharge tube. Stuipid in fact. Let's hope the insurance company does not require this modification.

My stove ignitor also did not work, but I couldn't find out how to fix it.

Good idea to install an engine raw water strainer. I did too, and put it under the sink where I could easily keep an eye on it, rather than inside the engine box.

I would ignore the suggestions to mount a drive belt guard and guard on the engine quadrant as unnecessary.

Only two water tanks? Isn't there a third under the floor of the lazarette?

Did he check the calibration of the tack using a strobe? Because I would have predicted that a 16 by 12 three blade prop would be too much for that engine, and that the max rpm would have been too low. That engine should be able to get up to about 2900 rpm under load, so something is not right. Try to borrow a strobe to check, and if the calibration is correct, at the very least swap the prop for a 16 by 11 (I was using a Max 16 by 10 three blade).


Anyway, there clearly weren't any "red flags" or deal breakers found in the survey. The big things are replacing the standing rigging and eventually rebedding the keel. Everything else sounds like things you can do yourself, even replacing the cabin sole. If you like the boat and are not put off by doing the upgrades yourself, there are no surprises in the survey.

But I have to admit that I would want a lot of compensation for all of these items, so I hope you can use that list to get a great price. Given the slightly tired condition and need for new rigging I would think $70K is fair. When my Ericson 38 was surveyed the surveyor listed nothing that needed work except the blisters, and my boat sold for $78K.

Keep us informed, as if I can't own an Ericson 38 anymore, I at least want to read about it!
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Survey Results

Thanks for your observations. We are negotiating further on the price. My thoughts exactly on the 70k range. We were at 74.5 prior to the survey. I thought it odd that the boat did not have a raw water strainer for the engine. As for the engine rpm he found it to be turning 2600 at full throttle using a strobe on the crank. The tach was reading 3100. I was thinking the prop is wrong and that it should turn higher and the tach needs calibrating.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Whatever Steve sez is golden, for my .02 worth. :)
The only particular I am familiar with was the factory's lack of a raw water strainer on my '88 boat. We put one in, a Groco.
As I said before, I did change out all the standing rigging two years ago, as a form of "insurance" and Preventative Maintenance.

I do hope that your deal comes together.

BTW, my last survey, over 2 years ago, cost about $10./foot. Considering how many of your surveyor's comments are crowded with "hedging" modifiers, I guess I would have expected more content for the dollar. And then, there is a LOT of boilerplate padding out that written survey. Maybe that's normal in your area (?).
Those personal observations worth less than $.02....
:rolleyes:

Best,
Loren in PDX

ps: when we bought our boat, I had a mechanic survey the diesel. He found a corroded-out exhaust elbow and saved me a lot more than his fee.
 
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u079721

Contributing Partner
Ted - Did you buy her?

Ted, we haven't heard from you for a few days on the purchase of your E-38. How did the negotiations go with the seller? Are you the proud owner of an Ericson yet?
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Sorry guys the bond market and a bad cold have gotten the better of me. I will be the proud owner this weekend. Closing on saturday, then the fun begins. I asked the broker to get me an estimate to strip the bottom to the gel coat and he found some guys who wanted over $600 and that was not to take off all the paint. Guess I'll be doing the nasty myself. The boat has been out of the water for quite a while and I want to get a good barrier coat on before i splash in april. The bottom doesn't look too bad and I was hoping I could find someone to sand it all down for 3-4 hundred. I may keep looking. I am going to drop the rig and replace all the standing rigging. I am also replacing the batteries, some 12v wiring, sealing a window or 2, replacing the cutlass and stuffing box, an exhaust gasket, aligning the engine after launch, and a ton of other stuff. You have by no means heard the last from me. Thanks so much for the help thus far!
 

Roger Ware

Member III
Ericson 38 200 Leaking Keel Joint and Bolts

Others have rebedded their keel in 1988-1990 Ericsons, and commented that the manufacturer had not prepared the keel shoe to adhere to the epoxy seal, hence the chronic leaking problem. My E38 200 had exactly this problem which had turned into a major leak by early this season. Eventually I felt that I had no choice but to haul it mid-season (at mid-season labour rates!) and get it fixed. Just in case anyone wants to see what the inside of an E38 200 keel joint looks like, these were taken this morning. The yard is going to seal it back with 5200 this afternoon.

Cheers, Roger, Kingston, ON
 

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ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Many questions but here are a few:

1. what year is your boat?
2. How hard was it to get the keel unbolted?
3. Did you have to unstep the rig?
4. Did you have to remove any cabinetry?
5. How much of the work did you do vs. the yard?
6. What did they charge you?
7. How long did it take to get the keel to drop once unbolted?
 

Roger Ware

Member III
Ted:

1. 1989
2. The biggest problem in removing the keel bolt nuts is, of course, access. Much to my surprise the yard was able to remove all of the nuts without damaging or removing any cabinetry, including my brand new teak and holly sole.
3. I left my mast up, another surprising break.
4. see 2
5. the yard did it all - this stuff is way beyond my pay scale
6. I am still blissfully unaware of the final bill, but this yard is an excellent outfit, full of integrity and skill. At least I will be paying in teeny Canadian $.
7. I missed the moment when they dropped the keel, but apparently it wasn't too difficult to move it - this of course is a tribute to the lack of adhesion of the original sealant between the hull and the keel (anyone know if Ericson did this deliberately?)

If they have put it back together tomorrow I will post another photo.

Cheers, Roger
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Oh yeah, we've got pictures like that

We had our keel dropped a couple of years ago after we showed up to do our weekly check on the boat (lived in N. VA and boat was in Annapolis) on New Years Eve and discovered a wee bit of an "issue". Ours also had some corrosion issues on the bolts from some crummy wiring that was done by some other owner (or maybe the factory).

The guy who did the original survey on the boat was a friend of ours and bought us a small shop vac when we settled on the deal. Boy were we glad that night!

Chris
 

Roger Ware

Member III
Chris, my bolts are pretty clean, actually, once the residue from the original caulking was cleaned off. Maybe I'm dense, but why were you glad about the shop vac? Cheers, Roger
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
well...

It pumps much faster than the bilge pump, especially the water that has already flooded above the bilge and is rapidly filling the cabin!
Really scary!
Chris
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
Chris,

What yard did you have do the keel drop? I am hoping to avoid the more expensive annapolis yards and will probably look down your way. BTW just came back from a 5 day cruise with the wife, 2.5 year old son, and 3 week old baby girl. Went up the bay as far as Havre De Grace. Hit the Sassafrass which was nice for swimming. Not too much good sailing up there with 6.5 ' draft but still had a good time and confirmed that we can cruise with both kids. Also pulled the trigger on the new main. Went with Quantum and a Dimension Laminate cloth.
 

lbertran

Member III
Hey, Ted...

Congratulations on the new baby! That's really great. Most folks are overwhelmed just having one at home never mind cruising! Hey, I'm starting to shop for a new headsail and asked Quantum for a quote. I'm looking for a laminate tri radial. Let me know if there's anything I should be aware of. Best,
Laura
 
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