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Hull to keel joint

H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
I have a small crack in the front of the hull to keel joint on my '87 E34, about 10" long on both sides, and possibly some water in the bilge due to a leak in that place. I am having the keel bolts checked (anyone know the torque specs, the bolts appear to be 1" diameter ss) and will have the crack ground out in preparation for caulking. Anyone know what is the best bedding compound for that applications. I think epoxy is poor because it is not flexible. Would 5200 be OK?
 
Christian Williams

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Regarding the caulk, I'd ask the recommendation of the yard checking the bolts (how will they do that?).

My personal baseline is Sikaflex 291 or maybe 4200. 5200 might damage the fiberglass if you ever were to drop the keel.
 
Slick470

Slick470

Member III
If the crack is just superficial and caused by regular old flexing at that joint, and the bedding compound is still ok, take a look at fairing in the joint with West System GFlex. It is much more flexible than normal epoxy and from what I've heard can help prevent the crack from returning.

I went this route last time we hauled out, but haven't hauled again to see if it has remedied the cracking.
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I worry less about the chosen sealant. I would drop the keel and re-bed it.
Lots of good threads and pix on this site about this procedure: the why and the how.

Actually this about the only (!) concern that I know with mid-late 80's Ericson assembly procedures -- that someone there did not do a good job of removing the mold-release wax from the hull bottom before the keel was attached.

We had that issue with out '88 boat and were lucky in finding that some surface rust on the bolt threads was as far as the problem went (that and a small determined leak around one bolt).

Others with keels pictured on this site found some real metal loss in the bolts in the portion of the threaded rod that is underneath the bilge and above the keel material.
Major Note: this will NOT be visible from the inside, looking down at the protruding top of the threads, even with the nut and washer removed.

The good news: What with the massive engineered-in safety factor of these keel bolts, no one has lost a keel.

Some yards are better-eqipped for this operation than others, BTW. They should have a welded steel "cage" support to cradle the keel when the travelift lifts the boat off.
It cost about 1K to 2K, a few years ago at a major yard in our area. You need to interview your yard mgr about their prior experience and references.
It is not very "high tech" work, but experience is important.

BTW, we found that the hull thickness, combined with the thickness of the internal frp "hat stringers" was very strong. It would be quite similar to your hull layup plus the thickness of your boat's TAFG layup.

Regards,
Loren
 
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Rick R.

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Our boat has been hauled every two years for a bottom job. There always seems to be a small area on the keel-hull join that we need to fair-in. The yard tells me that our keel is fine and it is just flexing.
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Loren, I am hoping that the keel does not have to be dropped, from what I understand that can be a horror story. My previous boat was a '72 Tartan 30 and after many years it developed a leak coming through the keel bolts, under heavy sail conditions, not just sitting at the dock. I had my yard remove all the keel nuts, repack the caulk around the nuts, reinstall the washers and nuts to the proper torque, no help. The next step was dropping the keel and that was scheduled to cost at least $3K if all the keel bolts were OK. Much more if some had to be replaced, another horror story. Stories abound in the Tartan literature of removing all the nuts, lifting the hull in the travel lift and the keel not breaking free, chain saws, hammers and chisels, etc.

I am not sure I have really have a leak there, the leak developed only once before my scheduled haul out for a bottom job. I do see a crack around the front and rear of the hull/keel joint and after some mildly aggressive grinding with a slow drill and blunt, rounded coarse bit, the exposed crack now extends to about half of the chord on both sides. With a pick, I removed all the loose material and how plan to have the yard grind out the crack, fill with something and maybe apply fiberglass cloth covering the crack. The E34 manual mentions this step as a possible annual maintenance procedure. With my Tartan experience, I am skeptical.

Any suggestions as what to use for the flexible filler, 5200, 4200, Silkaflex 291, West GFlex??

Also the torque specs online say for a one inch SS bolt, tighten to about 250 ft lbs, that takes a gorilla?
 
Rick R.

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
HerbertFriedman said:
Loren, I am hoping that the keel does not have to be dropped, from what I understand that can be a horror story. My previous boat was a '72 Tartan 30 and after many years it developed a leak coming through the keel bolts, under heavy sail conditions, not just sitting at the dock. I had my yard remove all the keel nuts, repack the caulk around the nuts, reinstall the washers and nuts to the proper torque, no help. The next step was dropping the keel and that was scheduled to cost at least $3K if all the keel bolts were OK. Much more if some had to be replaced, another horror story. Stories abound in the Tartan literature of removing all the nuts, lifting the hull in the travel lift and the keel not breaking free, chain saws, hammers and chisels, etc.

I am not sure I have really have a leak there, the leak developed only once before my scheduled haul out for a bottom job. I do see a crack around the front and rear of the hull/keel joint and after some mildly aggressive grinding with a slow drill and blunt, rounded coarse bit, the exposed crack now extends to about half of the chord on both sides. With a pick, I removed all the loose material and how plan to have the yard grind out the crack, fill with something and maybe apply fiberglass cloth covering the crack. The E34 manual mentions this step as a possible annual maintenance procedure. With my Tartan experience, I am skeptical.

Any suggestions as what to use for the flexible filler, 5200, 4200, Silkaflex 291, West GFlex??

Also the torque specs online say for a one inch SS bolt, tighten to about 250 ft lbs, that takes a gorilla?
Click to expand...

A gorilla with a breaker bar. That's what we had to use.
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
About separating the keel from the hull, as the travelift starts their lift and the straps tighten..... ours came up off of the keel easily. Instant proof that the original adhesive-sealant had never adhered to the hull. :rolleyes:
The yard guys did tell me that on some boats they did have to use some force to separate them.


More info in reply 33 and 44 in this long thread.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?1743-Surveying-an-E-38-200/page3


Loren
 
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u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
I agree with Loren on this - that is, if the joint is leaking water, anything less than dropping the keel and rebedding is a short term band aid. And the possibility that the keel bolts are corroding away would keep me up at night.

We had to do it on Rag Doll. In our case the locals were trained by the Gougon Brothers at West Marine across town in Bay City, so we went with a very permanent epoxy for the bedding compound, and it never leaked again.
 
H

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Steve, you went with permanent epoxy not 5200? When I spoke with Tartan, they said that the keels on all their "new" boats were sealed with 5200 so that their is some flex.

Mind if I ask what you paid and about when? Also, were they able to get at all the nuts from the hatches without cutting holes or removing floor boards? My boat is an E34 so the hatch arrangement may not be the same as on the E38 but the bolt pattern, eight one inch and four 1/2 inch look the same, maybe smaller but the same arrangement.
 
u079721

u079721

Contributing Partner
I agree that the idea of having some flex is desirable, but my yard wanted to do epoxy so that's what we did. My impression is that bedding with epoxy is fairly rare, so I would not go looking for it if someone were not already experienced with the process. As for cost, this was in Bay City Michigan, in 1995, and it cost me $6000 to have the keel rebedded and the hull peeled for blisters, of which about $1000 was for the keel. And at least on the E38 you didn't have to do any removal or cutting of bulkheads or cabinets to get all the nuts free of the keel bolts.
 
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