E-33 Mainsheet upgrade

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E33MikeOx

Member II
This follows up a posting on another thread by Kieth P about upgrading the mainsheet tackle on his E-33

I had the same problem - that main on the 33 is quite sizable! The factory system - 'twas originally a 6 to 1 tackle on my boat (hull #25) - was fine for racing with a crew of young, strong, eager guys - was not ideal for a "mature" owner with similar crew. My solution was a custom 5 to 1 / 10 to 1 two speed system put together by the fine folks at Harken. I've used it for several years now and found it to be a good solution. If I did this right, there should be pictures attached.

Mike Oxborrow
E-33 JP Foolish, hull #25
 

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E

E33MikeOx

Member II
FYI - My Harker (2009) catalog shows two (2) different stock two speed mainsheet systems. Part No. 332 is a 3:1/6:1 system. Part No. 383 is a 4:1/8:1 system. Harken describes them as: "gross-trim/fine-tune mainsheet systems". The system works kinda like a two speed winch - when you can't bring in the sheet quickly with the "high' gear, (pulling both lines simultaneously) you shift to the "low" gear (pulling one line only) - slower but more powerful.

Mike
JP Foolish E-33 hull #25
 
S

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Several ways to skin a kitty...........

But you are on the right track-this boat MUST have a fine/coarse tune mainsheet, as all modern boats with large mainsails do. Check out Beneteau 36.7's or J 105/109's in your harbor (should be at least one of these nearby) for another take on the same idea...
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
E33MikeOx said:
This follows up a posting on another thread by Kieth P about upgrading the mainsheet tackle on his E-33

I had the same problem - that main on the 33 is quite sizable! The factory system - 'twas originally a 6 to 1 tackle on my boat (hull #25) - was fine for racing with a crew of young, strong, eager guys - was not ideal for a "mature" owner with similar crew. My solution was a custom 5 to 1 / 10 to 1 two speed system put together by the fine folks at Harken. I've used it for several years now and found it to be a good solution. If I did this right, there should be pictures attached.

Mike Oxborrow
E-33 JP Foolish, hull #25
Click to expand...

Any concerns about placing too much stress on the attachment point on the boom vs. spreading out the load over a couple of different boom bales? From the pic it appears that it is attached to the boom in just that one location, which is moderately far forward. Just wondering.

--Alan Gomes
1984 E26
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Alan Gomes said:
Any concerns about placing too much stress on the attachment point on the boom vs. spreading out the load over a couple of different boom bales? From the pic it appears that it is attached to the boom in just that one location, which is moderately far forward. Just wondering.
--Alan Gomes
1984 E26
Click to expand...

Should never be a problem. All you do when you increase the number of falls in the tackle is make it easier for you to sheet it in. The stress on the boom attachment point is the same as it was before at any given wind pressure.
Normally, the boom section was engineered for the designed sheet attachment point(s). That's why the boats with a mid-boom attachment scheme - and some are even further forward than the mid point - have a stronger section specified.

Boats that use the aft third of the boom, like the Olson's, E-35-2, and the RH-designed Ericson's have less load on their attachment point.

Loren
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Loren Beach said:
Should never be a problem. All you do when you increase the number of falls in the tackle is make it easier for you to sheet it in. The stress on the boom attachment point is the same as it was before at any given wind pressure.
Normally, the boom section was engineered for the designed sheet attachment point(s). That's why the boats with a mid-boom attachment scheme - and some are even further forward than the mid point - have a stronger section specified.

Boats that use the aft third of the boom, like the Olson's, E-35-2, and the RH-designed Ericson's have less load on their attachment point.

Loren
Click to expand...

Thank you, Loren, and your reply makes perfect sense--though it also shows me that I failed to express myself clearly. What I failed to ask--though it was in my mind when I was writing out the question (honest!)--is whether this modification of the mainsheet system involved redesigning the attachment point on the boom so that it now attaches merely to this one place vs. a (possible) earlier configuration in which it was spread out over a few different bales. But of course, if everything is identical except for the greater mechanical advantage of a new tackle, then your point is certainly correct.

Thanks,
Alan
 
E

E33MikeOx

Member II
No redesign was contemplated or (IMHO) necessary. This particular E-33 came from the factory with one (1) attachment point on the boom for the mainsheet tackle. All I did was replace the original upper block with the replacement Harken upper block. Been using it for several years now - no problems - no sign of weakning or imminent failure.

Mike O.
JP Foolish, E-33 hull #25
 
Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
E33MikeOx said:
No redesign was contemplated or (IMHO) necessary. This particular E-33 came from the factory with one (1) attachment point on the boom for the mainsheet tackle. All I did was replace the original upper block with the replacement Harken upper block. Been using it for several years now - no problems - no sign of weakning or imminent failure.

Mike O.
JP Foolish, E-33 hull #25
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it, Mike! It would appear, then, that the stresses involved were already taken into account, as Loren has suggested.

I think you'll really enjoy the "two speed" mainsheet system. A friend has one on his Beneteau 36.7 and I used one extensively last racing season on a J-100, where I was mainsail trimmer. It's a very sweet setup.

Cheers,
Alan G.
 
Rocinante33

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Mike,

OK, I am considering the fine/coarse cascading blocks system based on your recommendation and Seth's, "MUST have" comment. My only concern is having more sheets laying in the cockpit. That is the main reason that I thought a 6:1 like Loren's would be better.

I must say, though that I don't understand your comment about using the two at the same time. I think it must bean either/or situation. How can you pull in two lines simultaneously?
 
Rocinante33

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Loren Beach said:
Should never be a problem. All you do when you increase the number of falls in the tackle is make it easier for you to sheet it in. The stress on the boom attachment point is the same as it was before at any given wind pressure.
Normally, the boom section was engineered for the designed sheet attachment point(s). That's why the boats with a mid-boom attachment scheme - and some are even further forward than the mid point - have a stronger section specified.

Boats that use the aft third of the boom, like the Olson's, E-35-2, and the RH-designed Ericson's have less load on their attachment point.

Loren
Click to expand...

Loren,

I think what Alan is referring to, is that some of the E-33s (mine included) have two attachment points on the boom. The current stock system has two single blocks, one forward of the other, each with a separate bale (or is it a heavy duty padeye?) as the attachment point. Therefore the load is split forward and aft on the boom. Mike's must be different from mine with his single attachment point on his boom.
 
E

E33MikeOx

Member II
Kieth:

Yep, my mainsheet system has a lot of line. Pulling two (2) lines simultaneously (fast "high gear") is not a problem - you just grab both and pull. Maybe Loren will add a comment since he's sailed extensively on our E-33.
Re your two (2) attachment points on your boom - Harken's 4:1/8:1 system (Part #383) uses a double fiddle block as the upper. Simple solution would be to substitute a double block at each attachment point for the double fiddle - same difference. I found that the friendly folks at Harken were easy to work with and they came up with a custom mainsheet system for me.

Mike O.
JP Foolish, E-33, hull #25
 
S

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Mainsheet systems

Hi Keith,

So, to clarify my "must have" comment, I was speaking of boats which are using a block and tackle arrangement rather than a series of blocks which are ultimately led to a winch-I just don't think 4:1 is nearly enough for anything bigger than a 28, and even 6:1 is pretty sketchy for a 30 or bigger if you are interested in optimizing your mainsail trim (unless you can benefit from a winch).

Anyway-yes, with that Harken setup you can pull fine and coarse at the same time, whereas other systems (such as found on Beneteaus, J boats, etc.) using Lewmar blocks (but could be Harken or Garhauer) have the fine and coarse tune on separate block and tackles, and you cannot.But I prefer the separated systems. In reality, the only reason to pull both tgether would be a scramble to round a leeward mark in a race, and while you are getting every last bit of trim as you pull, the fine tune is still a slow process due to the purchase, so I am not sure what it really gets you.

Both are nice systems, and both work well-try to spend a little time playing with both types and form your own opinion.

Cheers
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Sheet Talk

There's a picture of my mainsheet in reply 25 of this earlier E-33 thread:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?9065-E-33RH-under-sail&referrerid=28

While I find that our 6 to 1 purchase is enough for everyday sailing, I can see where adding some more purchase might be a tad better for buoy racing.
Actually, the greatest weakness of the stock system on the Olson is the lack of purchase on the traveler car.
One of these days I do need to add another sheave for each side -- it's a bit of a tussle on a windy day. :rolleyes:

Regards,
Loren
 
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Alan Gomes

Alan Gomes

Sustaining Partner
Keith Parcells said:
Loren,

I think what Alan is referring to, is that some of the E-33s (mine included) have two attachment points on the boom. The current stock system has two single blocks, one forward of the other, each with a separate bale (or is it a heavy duty padeye?) as the attachment point. Therefore the load is split forward and aft on the boom. Mike's must be different from mine with his single attachment point on his boom.
Click to expand...

Yes, Keith, that is what I had in mind--though you are giving me a bit too much credit in assuming that I have enough knowledge about the E-33s to know that some of them are set up with two attachment points (bales), as is yours. I was just asking this in theory. I used to have a Catalina 30 with mid-boom sheeting and it distributed the load across three bales. I also recall a number of discussions on the C30 list about individuals who were interested in moving the mainsheet attachment point forward (to better accommodate a dodger) and were wondering about reducing the number of attachment points as well. So with that on my mind I asked the question. But if the boom is properly engineered for that load then I guess all is well.

--AG
 
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P

Pokey

Member II
The following is an illustration of the mainsheet on my Olson 911. It's also the same system used on a Farr/Mumm 30 and other modern race boats.

I likethis system because it keeps the mainsheet length to a minimum and because the fine trim has enough throw (adjustemnt) to go from a beat to a reach.

Note that the block sizes shown are Harken Carbos.
Mainsheet System.jpg
 
Loren Beach

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Pokey said:
The following is an illustration of the mainsheet on my Olson 911. It's also the same system used on a Farr/Mumm 30 and other modern race boats.

I likethis system because it keeps the mainsheet length to a minimum and because the fine trim has enough throw (adjustemnt) to go from a beat to a reach.

Note that the block sizes shown are Harken Carbos.
View attachment 11867
Click to expand...

When you get an opportunity, some pictures would also be nice. Looks like a very efficient system.
Thanks much.

Loren
 
S

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Sheets lying in the cockit

Seth said:
Hi Keith,

So, to clarify my "must have" comment, I was speaking of boats which are using a block and tackle arrangement rather than a series of blocks which are ultimately led to a winch-I just don't think 4:1 is nearly enough for anything bigger than a 28, and even 6:1 is pretty sketchy for a 30 or bigger if you are interested in optimizing your mainsail trim (unless you can benefit from a winch).

Anyway-yes, with that Harken setup you can pull fine and coarse at the same time, whereas other systems (such as found on Beneteaus, J boats, etc.) using Lewmar blocks (but could be Harken or Garhauer) have the fine and coarse tune on separate block and tackles, and you cannot.But I prefer the separated systems. In reality, the only reason to pull both tgether would be a scramble to round a leeward mark in a race, and while you are getting every last bit of trim as you pull, the fine tune is still a slow process due to the purchase, so I am not sure what it really gets you.

Both are nice systems, and both work well-try to spend a little time playing with both types and form your own opinion.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Also, to address your concerns about extra line in the 'pit, with the set up we use on most boats (in which there is a small 4 or 6:1) tackle with smaller line riding on top of the coarse tune fiddle, there is really no extra line as this line will be short and under load most of the time...same thing with the setup shown in Pokey's post-the tails are short and there is very little extra line.With the twin harken system there could be more line in the cockpit, though. I will try to post a pic soon. Cheers
 
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E

E33MikeOx

Member II
Lots of line

Yep. There is a lot of line in my 5:1 - 10:1 main sheet system. The quantity of line doesn't seem to be much of a problem. The only time the quantity of line MAY be an issue (IMHO) is when 'rounding the windward mark and going from close hauled to running. The cockpit crew quickly learns to minimize the "foot cleat" effect, and let the sheets run. Snap both parts of the mainsheet out of their cleats, and it runs out as if it were a simple 5:1 system. Life if full of compromises - this mainsheet system on this E-33 with this owner/skipper has been a quite acceptable compromise. Bottom line is that trimming those last few inches when hard on a stiff breeze is easier! YMMV. I have not had to opportunity to sail on a boat with alternate fine/gross trim mainsheet systems.

Mike O.
E-33 JP Foolish, hull #25
 
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