Window leaks. HELP!

[Petro206]

Ok, I’m at my wits end here and need some help from fellow yachters!
Since purchasing our 34T, the windows have been our #1 pest. The previous owner had removed all of them and taped plastic over the openings. Don’t even get me started on removing the seasons old tape residue.
But now we’ve reinstalled the frames, glass, and molding, and they still leak. We’ve used Butyl tape, silicone sealant, stilllllll leaking. We are in the Pacific Northwest so when it pours, it POURS. I see other boats that just throw tarps over, but I’d love to avoid that if I could. Seems like there should be a better solution to keeping the H2O out. OR, does anyone have a successful replacement idea to these old aluminum frames?

 

[bigd14]

Can you see exactly where the water is getting through?

Is it between the portlight and the cabin side? Sometimes the openings are too large so you don’t get enough bearing surface for the butyl to seal. Solution in that case would be to switch from butyl to a caulk such as Sika 291.

Or is water coming through the frame and glass? This could be due to a wrong extrusion being used. There are several varieties of extrusions for different thicknesses of glass so a mismatch is possible (happened to me). Solution here would be to try a different extrusion or to permanently seal the glass into the frame with Dow 795 or similar.

As a general rule one is should avoid using silicone caulk (e.g. bathroom caulk) since it is prone to failure and leaves a residue that is nearly impossible to remove.

 

[p.gazibara]

Easiest way to solve the leaky portlights is to sail for MX, lol.

Are you sure its the portlights? Do you have a FRP headliner inside the boat? Boats with the FRP headliner pan can make it seem like the leaks are coming from the lowest point (portlights) but in fact can be leaking from somewhere above. I had to cut out our entire headliner (week in a Tyvek bunny suit, I do not recommend) only to find holes in the deck that were just sika'd. and covered with nonskid. Eventually water worked it's way under the non-skid and leaked into the cabin eventually coming out at the portlights. The main salon hatch did the same.

As for rebedding portlights, I HATE butyl tape. There I said it. I used it in the past and every spot I did, it leaked. I was later told you need to use the "right kind" but it can be hard to determine what that is exactly.

All of the NZ boatbuilders use Dow 795 neutral cure silicone for the portlights. I used it on all of our portlights and have solved the leak problem. It was designed to hold highrise windows in without fasteners and provide a leak free seal. It lasts for decades.

When I did that bunny suit job, I noticed that the cabinsides in Cinderella were a very thin (3-4mm maybe) fiberglass layup. No doubt that all the flexing over the years (and across the ocean) did not help with leaks. I laminated 10mm high density foam to 4mm ply and laminated that whole mess to the cabinsides. No more flex, no more leaks. FWIW, the leaks I had in the portlights were between the frame and the cabinside, not the glass and the fram. I tested this by laying them all flat and filling them with water up to the frame. they held the water without leaks.

 

[Loren Beach]

Replacing rubber seals on main (large) windows/ports [Master Thread]

Still working on our "Never Ending Project" of refurbishing our E-32 Mk II ("CaryOn"). We're currently replacing all of the rubber seals on ALL of the ports. The smaller ones went fairly easy (not really) but the larger ports/windows are a REAL problem on the small hard radius corners. The...

ericsonyachts.org

Pretty good source of information/solutions, IMHO.

 

[Alan Gomes]

As for rebedding portlights, I HATE butyl tape. There I said it.

Yup. Horrible for portlights.

 

[Christian Williams]

Please post a photo of your brand of portlights. The 34T might be atypical, and in any case Ericson changed suppliers several times over the years.

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

silicone sealant

If silicone was used between the frame and the cabin you have some work to do.

 

[Shawn Brooks]

Your situation my be a little different from my portlight rebed on my 32-3, but I used enough 4200 that it oozed out the outer bezel a bit all the way around and razered off the excess after it cured. That worked for me.

My leak was around the bezel and through the deck/frame joint--not through the window/gasket.

 

[Petro206]

Can you see exactly where the water is getting through?

Is it between the portlight and the cabin side? Sometimes the openings are too large so you don’t get enough bearing surface for the butyl to seal. Solution in that case would be to switch from butyl to a caulk such as Sika 291.

Or is water coming through the frame and glass? This could be due to a wrong extrusion being used. There are several varieties of extrusions for different thicknesses of glass so a mismatch is possible (happened to me). Solution here would be to try a different extrusion or to permanently seal the glass into the frame with Dow 795 or similar.

As a general rule one is should avoid using silicone caulk (e.g. bathroom caulk) since it is prone to failure and leaves a residue that is nearly impossible to remove.

We can't really tell at this point, but your suggestion for Dow 795 is clutch. It's exactly what I was thinking as my next step, a liquid mold, if you will, to fill these damn frames and every little crevice they can find. As for caulk, definitely not using that. It was a clear silicone marine grade product that we used where the glass meets the frame, and around the perimeter along the butyl as an added back up. I'll look into the Sika as well. Thank you!

 

[Petro206]

If silicone was used between the frame and the cabin you have some work to do.

It was not. Just the butyl tape on the exterior and the frame extrusions inside the frame.

 

[Petro206]

Easiest way to solve the leaky portlights is to sail for MX, lol.

Are you sure its the portlights? Do you have a FRP headliner inside the boat? Boats with the FRP headliner pan can make it seem like the leaks are coming from the lowest point (portlights) but in fact can be leaking from somewhere above. I had to cut out our entire headliner (week in a Tyvek bunny suit, I do not recommend) only to find holes in the deck that were just sika'd. and covered with nonskid. Eventually water worked it's way under the non-skid and leaked into the cabin eventually coming out at the portlights. The main salon hatch did the same.

As for rebedding portlights, I HATE butyl tape. There I said it. I used it in the past and every spot I did, it leaked. I was later told you need to use the "right kind" but it can be hard to determine what that is exactly.

All of the NZ boatbuilders use Dow 795 neutral cure silicone for the portlights. I used it on all of our portlights and have solved the leak problem. It was designed to hold highrise windows in without fasteners and provide a leak free seal. It lasts for decades.

When I did that bunny suit job, I noticed that the cabinsides in Cinderella were a very thin (3-4mm maybe) fiberglass layup. No doubt that all the flexing over the years (and across the ocean) did not help with leaks. I laminated 10mm high density foam to 4mm ply and laminated that whole mess to the cabinsides. No more flex, no more leaks. FWIW, the leaks I had in the portlights were between the frame and the cabinside, not the glass and the fram. I tested this by laying them all flat and filling them with water up to the frame. they held the water without leaks.

I 100% agree with the easiest way. I loathe NW winters. It's definitely not the headliner, as we stripped all of this out to update to a more modern look.

Sounds like the Dow 795 might be our next step.

As for the cabinsides, I have noticed where they do thin up near the corners. Hadn't thought of thickening that area, but not a bad idea.

All great tips, thank you!

 

[G Kiba]

Cabin sides in my E27 had nothing in between. This really caused sealing problems when tightening the port lights. I believe I ended up using a modest amount of that spray expending insulating foam to fill the gap. It did not take much but it made the structure rigid enough to get a good seal on the butyl tape. I know... I like the butyl tape. I like it because it does not harden and is easy to remove the ports if needed.

 

[bigd14]

Petro, here (see Post #26) are some things I learned when I used 795 to seal the glass in place that might be helpful:

Tips for removing original portlights

Screwing in the inner frames provides enough compression for butyl. (I found some weird problem with getting them to screw back in evenly that I never fully figured out.) I still have one port that's still "temporarily" sealed with butyl (I forgot that one.) Still doing good. One of the...

ericsonyachts.org

They have held up through 7 PNW winters with nary a drip. I too, used Bed-It butyl tape on the portlight frame to cabin sides with no issues and for the reasons Grant mentioned, but I definitely respect others opinions about using caulk instead.

 

[Petro206]

Easiest way to solve the leaky portlights is to sail for MX, lol.

Are you sure its the portlights? Do you have a FRP headliner inside the boat? Boats with the FRP headliner pan can make it seem like the leaks are coming from the lowest point (portlights) but in fact can be leaking from somewhere above. I had to cut out our entire headliner (week in a Tyvek bunny suit, I do not recommend) only to find holes in the deck that were just sika'd. and covered with nonskid. Eventually water worked it's way under the non-skid and leaked into the cabin eventually coming out at the portlights. The main salon hatch did the same.

As for rebedding portlights, I HATE butyl tape. There I said it. I used it in the past and every spot I did, it leaked. I was later told you need to use the "right kind" but it can be hard to determine what that is exactly.

All of the NZ boatbuilders use Dow 795 neutral cure silicone for the portlights. I used it on all of our portlights and have solved the leak problem. It was designed to hold highrise windows in without fasteners and provide a leak free seal. It lasts for decades.

When I did that bunny suit job, I noticed that the cabinsides in Cinderella were a very thin (3-4mm maybe) fiberglass layup. No doubt that all the flexing over the years (and across the ocean) did not help with leaks. I laminated 10mm high density foam to 4mm ply and laminated that whole mess to the cabinsides. No more flex, no more leaks. FWIW, the leaks I had in the portlights were between the frame and the cabinside, not the glass and the fram. I tested this by laying them all flat and filling them with water up to the frame. they held the water without leaks.

To be clear, the Dow 795 is to go between the frame and the gelcoat, or do you (can you) use it to replace the glazing?

 

[Prairie Schooner]

To be clear, the Dow 795 is to go between the frame and the gelcoat, or do you (can you) use it to replace the glazing?

I used the 795 to mount the glass into the frames of the fixed portlights.
ed. I used 3M 4000 UV to install the fixed portlight assemblies in the boat.

This thread may also be helpful.

Replacing Fixed Windows Research [Master Thread]

In reference to a previous thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=9484&highlight=Motion+Windows I just sent emails to Motion Windows in Vancouver, WA and to USA Marine Windows in Florida to get some prices on fabricating replacement fixed windows for my E30+. I did...

ericsonyachts.org

Jeff

 

[p.gazibara]

To be clear, the Dow 795 is to go between the frame and the gelcoat, or do you (can you) use it to replace the glazing?

I did not seal the glass to the frames as I had no leak there, and from the posts it looked like a real mission. I only used 795 to seal the frames to the cabinsides. The aftmost port lights are the only original Ericson portlights left on Cinderella, all of the opening portlights (x6) forward had already been replaced by a PO and are the standard opening portlights on a Freedom series boat. thought they match the aft portlights very well and I would not have known if it wasn't for the PO telling me.

 

[Petro206]

Easiest way to solve the leaky portlights is to sail for MX, lol.

Are you sure its the portlights? Do you have a FRP headliner inside the boat? Boats with the FRP headliner pan can make it seem like the leaks are coming from the lowest point (portlights) but in fact can be leaking from somewhere above. I had to cut out our entire headliner (week in a Tyvek bunny suit, I do not recommend) only to find holes in the deck that were just sika'd. and covered with nonskid. Eventually water worked it's way under the non-skid and leaked into the cabin eventually coming out at the portlights. The main salon hatch did the same.

As for rebedding portlights, I HATE butyl tape. There I said it. I used it in the past and every spot I did, it leaked. I was later told you need to use the "right kind" but it can be hard to determine what that is exactly.

All of the NZ boatbuilders use Dow 795 neutral cure silicone for the portlights. I used it on all of our portlights and have solved the leak problem. It was designed to hold highrise windows in without fasteners and provide a leak free seal. It lasts for decades.

When I did that bunny suit job, I noticed that the cabinsides in Cinderella were a very thin (3-4mm maybe) fiberglass layup. No doubt that all the flexing over the years (and across the ocean) did not help with leaks. I laminated 10mm high density foam to 4mm ply and laminated that whole mess to the cabinsides. No more flex, no more leaks. FWIW, the leaks I had in the portlights were between the frame and the cabinside, not the glass and the fram. I tested this by laying them all flat and filling them with water up to the frame. they held the water without leaks.

A little update since the recent freezing temps. So we're in the process of replacing the headliner. When we purchased the vessel, the PO had removed all the headliner, but never finished the project. So now, we've put foam insulation up and are preparing the actual headliner pieces. That being said, anywhere there is no foam, condensation from the freeze is getting through. This is in addition to the window leaks. So frustrating.

Thus, my solution was to get a dehumidifier with a drain hose to go directly into the bilge. Second, we were hoping to avoid the tarp covers this year, but they are effective in keeping the the condensation to a minimum, so they are back up. These will also allow us the opportunity in the NW winters to work on the windows more. And we'll be putting up more foam once the current status is all dried up.

 

[Pete the Cat]

A little update since the recent freezing temps. So we're in the process of replacing the headliner. When we purchased the vessel, the PO had removed all the headliner, but never finished the project. So now, we've put foam insulation up and are preparing the actual headliner pieces. That being said, anywhere there is no foam, condensation from the freeze is getting through. This is in addition to the window leaks. So frustrating.

Thus, my solution was to get a dehumidifier with a drain hose to go directly into the bilge. Second, we were hoping to avoid the tarp covers this year, but they are effective in keeping the the condensation to a minimum, so they are back up. These will also allow us the opportunity in the NW winters to work on the windows more. And we'll be putting up more foam once the current status is all dried up.

Are you using propane for heat inside? It can produce a lot of "condensation" just from the burning of the fuel.