Windlass recommendations sought

[Tom Metzger]

In fact, I was just discussing this very thing with a good friend of mine this morning, and our first order of business was to calculate how many beverages we would consume while mapping out all the costs for the project--some hidden, some obvious.

Speaking of calculating planning costs, I hope you don't think Glyn and I work for free. Well... at least I don't.

 

[Vagabond39]

Windless

Alan:
Years ago, with a Cape Dory 25 I got a used Simpson Lawrence Highspeed windless. Manual, lever operated, with both the horizontal head, and the gypsy. Much easier to tend the rode and chain. Small boat and electrocal power is always lacking.
Bob

 

[Alan Gomes]

Speaking of calculating planning costs, I hope you don't think Glyn and I work for free. Well... at least I don't.

Of course! Libation of your choice--but you have to come to Southern Calif. to claim it!

 

[Alan Gomes]

Alan:
Years ago, with a Cape Dory 25 I got a used Simpson Lawrence Highspeed windless. Manual, lever operated, with both the horizontal head, and the gypsy. Much easier to tend the rode and chain. Small boat and electrocal power is always lacking.
Bob

How long would you guess that it took you to retrieve 125' of rode/chain (assuming you ever anchored in such depths)?

Also, if I am picturing the same thing you are talking about, isn't it a rather ungainly beast? Seems like it would be quite a massive chunk of hardware to mount on my little 26 footer (though I understand you put it on a 25 footer).

 

[toddster]

Another option to avoid long expensive cable runs, is of course to add a battery forward with only a charging wire making the long run from a battery isolator. All found (including the breakers) by rummaging through the bins at the buy/sell/trade chandlery. The E29 has just the right space, otherwise unused, under the V-berth just aft of the crash bulkhead. (From the drawings, this may have once been intended for tankage, but my boat doesn't have one there.) This also fits in with my quest to stop adding weight aft and port. In the future, this might all get upgraded to a storage bank, if and when a solar array gets added.

I too, decided to get a small windlass, after a few adventures hauling muddy rope and chain down the side deck to a winch, while motoring into the wind. Both of which are two-handed jobs. I got one that has a cute little drum on top for a second anchor line, or warping into the dock, or whatever. But I would never try to drag the boat with that little windlass. Running the anchor line down the side deck to a #44 primary suffices on those rare (ahem) occasions when the boat needs to be kedged off a sandbar. Or (ahem) so I hear...

 

[ignacio]

But the biggest drawback that I can't get past is how slow it would be to haul up the anchor when anchored in 100-125' of water.

I used to have a manual Lofrans windlass with a capstan, and 300' 5/8" nylon, and 70' of chain. At White's Landing anchored in 80', it sucked with that windlass.

Not so bad in 15-20 feet, but with the wind blowing, it seemed at least as slow as hauling it in by hand, maybe slower. That's with someone at the wheel and engine controls. Singlehanded, I could foresee some issues in a blow, so the manual windlass is gone. A self-tailing winch might make this easier, but I think that would still be pretty slow if anchoring in 100-125' feet of water.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Vertical windlass.

Ours windlass is vertical and Ideal's recommendations is not to use the drum or the gypsy for securing a line, that's the job of a line brake. I think their rational is based on the 1" main shaft being bronze. Do other brands have bronze or stainless shafts? Glyn

 

[Alan Gomes]

Another option to avoid long expensive cable runs, is of course to add a battery forward with only a charging wire making the long run from a battery isolator. All found (including the breakers) by rummaging through the bins at the buy/sell/trade chandlery. The E29 has just the right space, otherwise unused, under the V-berth just aft of the crash bulkhead. (From the drawings, this may have once been intended for tankage, but my boat doesn't have one there.) This also fits in with my quest to stop adding weight aft and port. In the future, this might all get upgraded to a storage bank, if and when a solar array gets added.

I too, decided to get a small windlass, after a few adventures hauling muddy rope and chain down the side deck to a winch, while motoring into the wind. Both of which are two-handed jobs. I got one that has a cute little drum on top for a second anchor line, or warping into the dock, or whatever. But I would never try to drag the boat with that little windlass. Running the anchor line down the side deck to a #44 primary suffices on those rare (ahem) occasions when the boat needs to be kedged off a sandbar. Or (ahem) so I hear...

Yes, my friend and I discussed the possibility of moving one of my Group 27s to a storage area to starboard, under the vee berth, immediately forward of the head. That storage area presently contains my macerator pump and also is used for other small, miscellaneous items. I will consider that because it might actually improve how the boat sits, which presently has a very slight list to port and is a bit stern heavy.

Hey, since my friend and I already talked about it this morning do I still owe you a second libation in payment? I need to keep track of my costs here....:nerd:

 

[Alan Gomes]

I used to have a manual Lofrans windlass with a capstan, and 300' 5/8" nylon, and 70' of chain. At White's Landing anchored in 80', it sucked with that windlass.

Not so bad in 15-20 feet, but with the wind blowing, it seemed at least as slow as hauling it in by hand, maybe slower. That's with someone at the wheel and engine controls. Singlehanded, I could foresee some issues in a blow, so the manual windlass is gone. A self-tailing winch might make this easier, but I think that would still be pretty slow if anchoring in 100-125' feet of water.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured.

 

[Bill Baum]

Maxwell Vertical has worked well for us!

Alan- We installed a Maxwell VW1000 vertical axis windlass on our Ericson 33 last year and have been very happy with it. We've got 10 months of full-time cruising usage on it and it does the job.

I do think the motor and wiring connections need to be fully protected from salt water. Our boat had only a shallow tray for an anchor locker, so we mounted the windlass aft of the bulkhead, and the motor is up on the ceiling of the V-berth. ( It's actually quite small- we thought we would do woodwork to conceal it, but have not bothered). This keeps the motor protected from all the salt in the anchor locker. ( this windlass has no haws pipe, so we "tail" the chain as it comes off the gypsy and toss it in the shallow locker).

The Maxwell windlass does not promise that the main vertical shaft is completely water-tight. We found, and Maxwell agreed, that when solid waves come over the bow some drips of water will make their way down past the main shaft "V-Ring", and their are "drainage" ports near the base of the shaft just above the gear box. So fir us we have found as much as a quart of seawater had dripped into our Vberth after a full day beating into waves over the bow. So far we've cobbled up and tried two different simple catchments, and we'll settle on one soon.

The shaft leakage sounds scarier than it is, and I'm very happy to have installed the motor away from the anchor locker- and it sure beats hauling the anchor by hand!

 

[Alan Gomes]

Alan- We installed a Maxwell VW1000 vertical axis windlass on our Ericson 33 last year and have been very happy with it. We've got 10 months of full-time cruising usage on it and it does the job.

I do think the motor and wiring connections need to be fully protected from salt water. Our boat had only a shallow tray for an anchor locker, so we mounted the windlass aft of the bulkhead, and the motor is up on the ceiling of the V-berth. ( It's actually quite small- we thought we would do woodwork to conceal it, but have not bothered). This keeps the motor protected from all the salt in the anchor locker. ( this windlass has no haws pipe, so we "tail" the chain as it comes off the gypsy and toss it in the shallow locker).

The Maxwell windlass does not promise that the main vertical shaft is completely water-tight. We found, and Maxwell agreed, that when solid waves come over the bow some drips of water will make their way down past the main shaft "V-Ring", and their are "drainage" ports near the base of the shaft just above the gear box. So fir us we have found as much as a quart of seawater had dripped into our Vberth after a full day beating into waves over the bow. So far we've cobbled up and tried two different simple catchments, and we'll settle on one soon.

The shaft leakage sounds scarier than it is, and I'm very happy to have installed the motor away from the anchor locker- and it sure beats hauling the anchor by hand!

Thanks, Bill. This is exactly the kind of feedback I'm seeking. Though you haven't had the unit very long, it does sound as though you've given it quite a workout.

 

[supersailor]

Check EBAY. I picked up a new Anchorlift Dolphin for under $600. You have lots of batteries for a 26.

 

[Glyn Judson]

A more affordable windlass.

That's exactly where I picked up my Ideal windlass from a seller in Florida. Glyn

 

[Vagabond39]

S-L Hispeed

The Hyspeed is under 9 inches fore- aft, 8 inches high, and 10 athwartships, from cat head to zerk fitting on gypsy clutch. I normaly usea 300 foot rode, plus about 30 foot of chain. Good for anchoring in 60 foot of water in calm weather.
It does help to have a rat tail stopper, to hold while going from head to gypsy.
The advantage is using the head like a snubbing winch, faster to get the rode up and down. And then use the lever for the weight lifting.
Plus, no protruding head knocker below decks. And, it don't eat batteries. Horizontal, you use standing up, rode off the top.
Bob

 

[Steve A]

For you guys with the 26's. I used the jib sheet primary to raise the anchor on my old 26 to within 15' of blocked at the bow. That ploy made the windlass unnecessary. The anchor was always off the bottom by that point. On my new 34, the anchor is 34 lbs and the chain at least 50 lbs so I now have an Anchorlift Windlass installed (we old guys are such wusses).

I used the same setup on my 26 footer but also had a 30'line w/a chain hook so I could bring it all the way up (I had30' of chain).

 

[Alan Gomes]

For grins I may do a test with my primary sheet winches and see just how bad it would be using a manual winch to raise the tackle. As I mentioned in a previous post, I could never see using my primary winches as a permanent solution because it would leave a mess of line in the cockpit which would then have to be stowed in the anchor locker on the bow--an additional hassle I don't want. But I could certainly try it once just to see how well the winches themselves work for this application.

Maybe I'll do this on Sunday when I pull up anchor to depart the Isthmus. If I do, I'll report back!

Ok, so I did go to the Isthmus on Thursday, anchored, and returned on Sunday. And I did lead the line to my port cockpit winch to see how it worked as a manual windlass. The short answer: it sucked.

For those who enjoy the details: I was anchored in 115' of water and had out 375' of 1/2" line and about 25' of 1/4" chain. There was a slight offshore breeze, perhaps 8 knots or so. My test consisted of winching the boat in until I had out about 120' of line. (I did not use the winch for breaking out the anchor because I use the boat's own motion to do that.) After winching the boat to where I had out 120' of line, I then transferred the pile of line in my cockpit back to the anchor locker, led the line off the winch and back to the bow, and then pulled up the anchor manually as usual, after letting the boat break it out of the bottom.

I found that it took me about 18-19 minutes to crank the boat in against the wind. This is working at a reasonable pace and taking short breaks as I went. While not exhausting, I still found it strenuous and not enough of an improvement over just pulling it in by hand to bother with. And definitely slower. So I am crossing off my list the possibility of mounting a large self-tailing winch on my foredeck.

On the other hand, I must admit that the process was not a total failure and that the test I gave it was something of a worst case scenario. For one thing, I was pulling the stern into the wind and off at an angle, whereas a winch mounted on the bow would pull the boat straight ahead and would present less resistance. Second, my cockpit winches are Lewmar 30ST, which are absolutely terrific as sheet winches for an E26 but may be on the small side for this application. Third, my winch handle was your typical 8 or 10" handle; a longer one would have provided more leverage. Fourth, there were some good things about the process, most notably the fact that I could immediately stop for a break and the self tailer held everything in place, so that I didn't lose any ground. So it was not a complete failure. I just don't think that I'd be satisfied with this as a permanent solution.

At this point I'm thinking that if I'm going to mess with installing something at all, I'll go with a good sized electric windlass, oversized so I can get away with using it to pull the boat up to the anchor in a breeze. (This will typically be necessary because of how often I single hand.)

Another reason for going to with a windlass vs. my manual "armstrong" method is that, although at this point I can still manage the 40+ pounds of anchor and chain, even hauling it up 125', about every third or fourth anchoring event Neptune decides to bequeath me some kind of parting gift for my trouble. This time, after the anchor broke free and as I was lifting it I noticed that it seemed especially heavy. When it got to the surface I had a veritable kelp forest attached, including some kind of large ball of roots.

 

[Christian Williams]

I agree you need a big windlass. Very few people anchor that deep for the reasons you encounter.

 

[Alan Gomes]

I agree you need a big windlass. Very few people anchor that deep for the reasons you encounter.

Quite true. Unfortunately, as you well know, the Isthmus has very few spots where one can anchor in relatively shallow water, and those have some definite drawbacks as far as I'm concerned. The places where I'm anchoring are just lovely in settled weather (like this past weekend) and I've had no problem whatever with the holding. The big problem is the depth and I'm hopeful a good windlass will cure that.

In the off season I just go for the "pay two get five free" mooring deals. But this time of year, the $40 or so per night adds up, especially given how often I'm over there. So I think a windlass is one of the few upgrades I could do that would in some sense "pay for itself"--kind of.

 

[supersailor]

I always used the bow roller and hand raised until there was a bunch of tension on the rode. It left a good angle on the line to reach the primary. The line came out of anchor line storage at the bow so I went forward to push it down. I never had much of a problem with that. It must be difficult to get the proper angle on the winch when raising at the stern.

 

[frick]

Adding Battery for Windlass

Don't forget that windlasses are major power hogs and, if you don't have multiple batteries in your bank, they can quickly flatten your batteries.

A friend of mine took one look at the cost of running the large copper wire needed to support the windlass, and came up with a good idea.

He added a deep cycle under the Vee-Berth, this allowed him to use much smaller wires to charge the battery, and a much sorter run of the heavy cable like wires to power the windlass... He also could tap it for the house if necessary.
Rick+