alexwilliamrussell
Member II
Why so little cruising parallel a beach, just for fun, is engine failure so feared? Seems they do it Florida but not Texas. = Alex, Galveston, TX, Ericson 25
Why so little cruising parallel a beach, just for fun, is engine failure so feared? = Alex, Galveston, TX
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Hmmm. Well, in Los Angeles the Lifeguard boats and USCG may approach at high speed. Three hundred yards is the technical limit, interpreted as anything "close." Drug or illegal immigrant offloading, presumably, as we are close to a border, but also, presumably, idiot insurance. Local coastline is quite safe, no inlets or currents or rocks, but unlike, say, Waikiki, you don't see watercraft in the surf lines. There is actually no particular appeal to such sailing, it's better here to head offshore a mile or two to clear water. Exception is made for Hobie cats and such, and Jet skis (we have very few jet skis).
To a sailor with local knowledge and experience, I don't see anything dangerous about it where permitted or fun. Generally you can sail. Or anchor if the engine quits.
Inexperienced motorboat owners often get into trouble, as YouTube videos demonstrate, when they make judgement calls without any judgement at all.
It is good to pay attention, have an anchor, a motor that works, and a plan. Here's a classic example of none of that:
To a sailor with local knowledge and experience, I don't see anything dangerous about it where permitted or fun. Generally you can sail. Or anchor if the engine quits.
Inexperienced motorboat owners often get into trouble, as YouTube videos demonstrate, when they make judgement calls without any judgement at all.
It is good to pay attention, have an anchor, a motor that works, and a plan. Here's a classic example of none of that:
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alexwilliamrussell
Member II
Maybe as water shallows the "current" increases, so nearer to shore is harder to stay still, or is this wrong the waves seem impressive but are same as out at sea and then bounce off the shore and head back out so there seems no way to have a current . . . I had guessed usually people head to the Inlet to duck behind the island and just laziness keeps people from sightseeing from offshore. . . . That video reminds me the Wind is usually from the sea so yeah being right off shore is just 5 minutes from hitting. Still, I have never seen a sailboat go parallel to the beach here in Galveston, but in Miami you see that.
Parrothead
Member III
Depending on wind direction, it's NEVER a good idea sailing close to a lee shore. We have a local race that on one leg has a lee shore on the backside of San Clemente Island. Thirteen years ago an ultralight Columbia Carbon 32 experienced rudder failure just as they gained the island and they weren't that close to shore, estimated @ 2NM. One crew died.
alexwilliamrussell
Member II
I think my Ericson 25 full keel would just bump in the surf on the Galveston Gulf of Mexico bottom and not be pushed over in the surf. Often the Gulf is as flat as a table, or small ripples, and the summer calm period is boring. Yes in bad conditions don't take risk but I THINK LOOKING AT THE FORCES most sailboats are NOT in danger on a very sandy and very flattish sea bottom next to Gulf of Mexico. People do this parallel beach cruising in Miami, and we do NOT see many people dying being pushed on the beach. I often am pushed by wind into the muddy shallows of a creek here, and my keel sorta acts like a safety bumper, in small waves and surf it just will not be tipped over or hurt.
That Columbia Carbon 32 in that beach surf accident was a racing boat so delicate, and was in high surf. It did roll over in the surf, and then life vests malfunctioned... . But IMPORTANANTLY it has a retractable keel to allow trailering, so I bet that came up and was flush with the bottom and then the ship rolled, the waves on that accident night seem Medium not large and certainly not Gulf of Mexico calm. This is unlike a Ericson 25 full keel, which is so heavy harder to roll. The Columbia was also tippy with just a small bulb keel, like 1700 out of 5000 pounds.
"""it's NEVER a good idea sailing close to a lee shore""" It is sorta NOT a good idea to EVER go out in boat, can hit a pipe, run aground, fall overboard, hit your head on something metal. Sooooooo, if one is scared of even low 1 in 10,000 risk then logically don't leave the marina. Im not trying to over argue, my only point is given all the factors are we exaggerating in low waves how risky is "being offshore near a beach in sailboat", it seems low risk in LOW wind and waves. I was raised on a river and was always scratching the boat or running aground and would have to power off or swim under and scrape, only at CLEARLY MORE ENERGETIC WATER TIMES LIKE flood times would we REALLY feel a boat could be tipped, and same with little surf on the ocean, again the Gulf of Mexico is usually flat or small ripples in summer...
Motors have also improved and rarely fail, I am amazed by 4 strokes. In the Columbia accident they lost the rudder and even with motor couldn't steer from shore, what a weird accident... Basically, maybe on CALM DAYS LOW WIND AND SURF IT IS SAFE ENOUGH TO PARALLEL THE SHORE..
PS. The 1 good thing about Texas is no rock just sand and mud, that is far less harmful to bump into, can such sand and mud EVER crack open a fiberglass hull no matter the pounding in surf???? California due to geology has hard jagged rock.
That Columbia Carbon 32 in that beach surf accident was a racing boat so delicate, and was in high surf. It did roll over in the surf, and then life vests malfunctioned... . But IMPORTANANTLY it has a retractable keel to allow trailering, so I bet that came up and was flush with the bottom and then the ship rolled, the waves on that accident night seem Medium not large and certainly not Gulf of Mexico calm. This is unlike a Ericson 25 full keel, which is so heavy harder to roll. The Columbia was also tippy with just a small bulb keel, like 1700 out of 5000 pounds.
"""it's NEVER a good idea sailing close to a lee shore""" It is sorta NOT a good idea to EVER go out in boat, can hit a pipe, run aground, fall overboard, hit your head on something metal. Sooooooo, if one is scared of even low 1 in 10,000 risk then logically don't leave the marina. Im not trying to over argue, my only point is given all the factors are we exaggerating in low waves how risky is "being offshore near a beach in sailboat", it seems low risk in LOW wind and waves. I was raised on a river and was always scratching the boat or running aground and would have to power off or swim under and scrape, only at CLEARLY MORE ENERGETIC WATER TIMES LIKE flood times would we REALLY feel a boat could be tipped, and same with little surf on the ocean, again the Gulf of Mexico is usually flat or small ripples in summer...
Motors have also improved and rarely fail, I am amazed by 4 strokes. In the Columbia accident they lost the rudder and even with motor couldn't steer from shore, what a weird accident... Basically, maybe on CALM DAYS LOW WIND AND SURF IT IS SAFE ENOUGH TO PARALLEL THE SHORE..
PS. The 1 good thing about Texas is no rock just sand and mud, that is far less harmful to bump into, can such sand and mud EVER crack open a fiberglass hull no matter the pounding in surf???? California due to geology has hard jagged rock.
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san clemente surf sailboat crash.jpg
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alexwilliamrussell
Member II
alexwilliamrussell
Member II
3 days in light light surf and boat survived .... I sorta admit the surfline is packed sand so harder to get off unlike spongey muddy sand in back water, , , ,
Thanks for the interesting video. The headline about "crashing" is rather strident, tho. Sheesh. Pure 'clickbait'.
Looks to me like they could have handed off a halyard to the second tow boat on scene, and have him take a strain from 90 degrees until the side deck started under, and with draft reduced the front tow boat could quickly move them into deeper water.
Of course this is just arm-chair-quarterbacking....
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alexwilliamrussell
Member II
The videos show the difference between Gulf of Mexico baby waves, and Florida medium waves, and probably Gulf of Mexico bottom is much flatter so one is sliding around more not hitting a solid Florida hill. Mississippi mud makes Gulf flatter I think, it certainly is muddier.... But both boats were not near sinking, whereas that California boat rolled when it hit the rocky bottom. . . . .
I myself will risk a beach sail by if it is dead calm so an anchor would hold me off the shore and no wind.
PS I have been anchoring in a tidal creek, so my keel gets stuck down in clammy mud, but my keel is so narrow it slides in easily and deeply, my older South Coast had a thick full keel like 1ft thick at bottom and would actually make boat raise up 2 feet if water fell that much, ha...
I myself will risk a beach sail by if it is dead calm so an anchor would hold me off the shore and no wind.
PS I have been anchoring in a tidal creek, so my keel gets stuck down in clammy mud, but my keel is so narrow it slides in easily and deeply, my older South Coast had a thick full keel like 1ft thick at bottom and would actually make boat raise up 2 feet if water fell that much, ha...
Parrothead
Member III
I think I see the difference here Alex. If your sailing includes regular groundings that are no big deal because the shore is sandy and the conditions calm then I can understand why you might want to enjoy the views of a lee shore. There are sandy beaches and calm days in California too but I still prefer avoiding the risk of landing on them.
As for the Columbia Carbon 32 incident I referenced earlier, what racing organization in their right mind would design a course with a dangerous, rocky lee shore 60NM offshore and exposed to 5000NM of fetch? A racing mark or committee boat on the lee side of the same island would have been much safer. And it was the second such lee shore in the race course, the first being the backside of Catalina. That's an awful lot of risk for a $25 plastic trophy.
As for the Columbia Carbon 32 incident I referenced earlier, what racing organization in their right mind would design a course with a dangerous, rocky lee shore 60NM offshore and exposed to 5000NM of fetch? A racing mark or committee boat on the lee side of the same island would have been much safer. And it was the second such lee shore in the race course, the first being the backside of Catalina. That's an awful lot of risk for a $25 plastic trophy.
alexwilliamrussell
Member II
SOME COASTS ARE ROCKY AND SPARSE.. To be fair to sailing race designers California is rocky coast, geologically volcanic past 50my unlike east coast, and current takes away sand, the opposite of gulf of Mexico. And has few ports a sailboat can enter like 20 entire 2000 miles San Diego to Seattle so like 100 miles between ports. Lake Superior use to have like 4 ports north of Duluth till the state built some Harbors of Refuge on plain beaches by dumping a L shape of rock.... Not sure I would ever risk sailing the Pacific Coast it by definition can often leave you in waves next to a rocky beach 50 miles from safe port... I guess Catalina islands help a bit with couple ports... Oregon has like 5. Florida in comparison has entire Bays of Good Sailing and barrier islands, California just sucks as safe sailing spot I would say. Or I could be wrong.
Parrothead
Member III
Your opening post asked why sailors avoid lee shores and I offered an answer. Beyond that, however you prefer to sail is your choice.
alexwilliamrussell
Member II
I thank you for your Answer about near beach sailing. I find it is good to dig and push for knowledge so chatting a longer time is my preference. Sometimes we learn what is accepted is based on false assumptions and one has to fight tradition as incorrect. Motors use to be finicky and fail far more often, and people didn't have a backup 2nd motor and also didn't have cell phones to ask for help, now these big factors are false, so maybe near shore sailing should be done more post2000. Plus muddy Gulf of Mexico is different than Rocky California which was cited as proof beach sailing is risky. Overall I see there are many factors. Thanks. Happy summer!!!!
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LameBMX
Member II
Without knowing the area. and assuming its as reported with drifting shoals. I think I would just get the sails up ASAP and try to heel/sail off. though with the reported 1ft - 3ft depth, i dont think i would be there anyways, drafting 5ft.