Why I intend to Glue Down New E381 Cabin Sole

[Christian Williams]

...
TAFG exposed; plug lines in sole.

The Ericson 381 sole is 3/4 teak and holly veneer. It is screwed down into the glass of the TAGF with two courses of 3/4 stainless screws per panel, meaning about 30 such screws in the companionway landing. The cabin entire has about 50 such screws.

The sole is trimmed with 34 individually fitted teak pieces. ,All are screwed down, for a total of about 75 screws. The trim screws into the plywood.

Every single one of those screws, excepting the periphery under the trim, is plugged. (To remove the sole you drill out the plug with a forster bit, find the exposed screw head, clean it with an Exacto knife, and extract.

To remove all trim pieces and one of seven sole panels took 8 hours.



Was this ever a "removable sole"?

Nope. Given the number of screw and plugs, a brand new sole would be disfigured if not ruined even if the removed the next day.

But--soles should be removable!

Yes, but this one ain't. The E32-3 sole is 1/4 inch plywood and if screwed down can be easily lifted to inspect the entire bilge. I removed that entire sole twice at sea. Ericson did glue it down on some models, which was a mistake, and required destruction when replacing. Few owners glue down a new 32-3 soles, since screws work so well. And that model requires no trim.

But if you glue down the E381 sole it will never come up!

Well, it won't "come up" in any case.

Moreover, the new plywood must be made waterproof using several coats of CPES and or epoxy (I haven't decided yet).

To install the new sole with 50 plugs in it--what's that do to the waterproofing job? The holes are drilled after CPES and varnish. Any membrane is therefore violated. Plus, plugs into pre-varnished plywood have no varnish on them, and will never have the seven coats prescribed.

The large number of screws used on the E381 were intended to lock the floor to the boat.

A glued-down sole would be equally anchored and immobile.

A glued-down sole would mean no lines of plugs, a great saving in labor time (many of the existing plugs have no screws under them because the factory guessed wrong about location and had to drill another hole half an inch away to find a holding surface).

I can screw the plywood into the TAFG at the edges, as the factory did. Since those screws are under the trim, they need no plugs.

In sum, the drawback to a glued-down sole is that it can never be removed.

But the E381 sole, as factory constructed, was never intended to be removed.

Access is through generous inspection ports. And so far it looks like on this model there are no hoses or wiring under there in need of future service.

Find a flaw in the argument, please. I can't.

 

[Tooluser]

A glued-down sole would be equally anchored and immobile.

Not a flaw per se, but I wonder about what seems to be an assumption. You state that gluing it down would be just as a mobile is all the damn screws, which is certainly true.

My question is whether this isn’t an opportunity to make the sole more easily removable, if that’s desirable.

sometime, if it’s not, or if that would be a tremendous amount, more work, then your argument is compelling to me.

 

[Loren Beach]

FWIW...
When I removed, refinished, and reinstalled our T&H sole sections, I found that I only needed about half the factory number of screws to make it solid again. The original fastening scheme, with a lot of screws and teak plugs, was more than needed, in the first place, IMHO.
I would always want the sole sections to be quickly removable. But, opinions do vary.

 

[Christian Williams]

The 381 sole is eccentric. Of all the ways to hold it down they choose the most labor-intensive with the least utility.

By the way, my sole still looked pretty good, just soft in spots. In fact, it is completely delaminated and rotted. I'll report more fully when the job is done, but as others have found, this particular model is a challenge. But then, it;s 40 years old.

 

[Christian Williams]

Joshua, how's the sole look on your '85 E381?

 

[Tooluser]

It’s ‘okay’. Noticeable wear in the galley; normal wear elsewhere. Not enough to redo, with the rest of the list.

I’ll get that gallery up, promise….

 

[Tooluser]

sometime, if it’s not, or if that would be a tremendous amount, more work, then your argument is compelling to me.

Voice dictation. Sigh.

I meant to be saying - if there’s not value in it being easy to remove, then indeed, why not glue it. But if it never needed to be so integrated and there’s no pressure to make it so, this could be an opportunity to make it easy to remove.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

View attachment 48449...View attachment 48450
TAFG exposed; plug lines in sole.

The Ericson 381 sole is 3/4 teak and holly veneer. It is screwed down into the glass of the TAGF with two courses of 3/4 stainless screws per panel, meaning about 30 such screws in the companionway landing. The cabin entire has about 50 such screws.

The sole is trimmed with 34 individually fitted teak pieces. ,All are screwed down, for a total of about 75 screws. The trim screws into the plywood.

Every single one of those screws, excepting the periphery under the trim, is plugged. (To remove the sole you drill out the plug with a forster bit, find the exposed screw head, clean it with an Exacto knife, and extract.

To remove all trim pieces and one of seven sole panels took 8 hours.

View attachment 48451

Was this ever a "removable sole"?

Nope. Given the number of screw and plugs, a brand new sole would be disfigured if not ruined even if the removed the next day.

But--soles should be removable!

Yes, but this one ain't. The E32-3 sole is 1/4 inch plywood and if screwed down can be easily lifted to inspect the entire bilge. I removed that entire sole twice at sea. Ericson did glue it down on some models, which was a mistake, and required destruction when replacing. Few owners glue down a new 32-3 soles, since screws work so well. And that model requires no trim.

But if you glue down the E381 sole it will never come up!

Well, it won't "come up" in any case.

Moreover, the new plywood must be made waterproof using several coats of CPES and or epoxy (I haven't decided yet).

To install the new sole with 50 plugs in it--what's that do to the waterproofing job? The holes are drilled after CPES and varnish. Any membrane is therefore violated. Plus, plugs into pre-varnished plywood have no varnish on them, and will never have the seven coats prescribed.

The large number of screws used on the E381 were intended to lock the floor to the boat.

A glued-down sole would be equally anchored and immobile.

A glued-down sole would mean no lines of plugs, a great saving in labor time (many of the existing plugs have no screws under them because the factory guessed wrong about location and had to drill another hole half an inch away to find a holding surface).

I can screw the plywood into the TAFG at the edges, as the factory did. Since those screws are under the trim, they need no plugs.

In sum, the drawback to a glued-down sole is that it can never be removed.

But the E381 sole, as factory constructed, was never intended to be removed.

Access is through generous inspection ports. And so far it looks like on this model there are no hoses or wiring under there in need of future service.

Find a flaw in the argument, please. I can't.

Even with all the screws removed and no glue, the panels would be hard to remove in our boat. It looks like your boat is similar. The bugaboo I find is the vertical trim pieces on the cabinetry which make it difficult to move the pieces in and out. I found this when I was fitting patterns and the sub-sole. My surmise is that at least some of them went on after the sole was laid. And all those bungs are indeed a pain. I empathize with your 'smack it, just glue the thing' thoughts. I'm not going to glue and am just going to put in the peripheral screws but not all those that were out in the middle of the panels. I figure gravity will do the rest. We still may not end up with a removable sole, but I will have maintained the illusion of such for myself. I sometimes find denial is a helpful gadget to have in my toolchest.
Jeff

 

[Nick J]

I can't find any flaw above what Ericson did originally. Like we've all said many times on here, these boats have made it 30-40 year already, it couldn't be all that bad. With the addition of sealing the plywood before installation, you are making it better.

If anyone wanted to go overboard and have it all, there are some solutions out there. I'm not sure how the details would work, but here's an interesting solution form PYI:

PYI Inc. | Floor Anchors

PYI Floor Anchors are designed and engineered to secure floorboards or lock hinged panels. The Floor Anchor safely holds 500 lbs per unit. Meets ISAF requirements for offshore boats (category 2.03).

pyiinc.com

I am curious where your water and bilge hoses are run if they aren't in the cavity directly forward of the engine bed. I wonder if a similar alternative path is available on the 35-3.

 

[Woody]

Not a flaw per se, but I wonder about what seems to be an assumption. You state that gluing it down would be just as a mobile is all the damn screws, which is certainly true.

My question is whether this isn’t an opportunity to make the sole more easily removable, if that’s desirable.

sometime, if it’s not, or if that would be a tremendous amount, more work, then your argument is compelling to me.

View attachment 48449...View attachment 48450
TAFG exposed; plug lines in sole.

The Ericson 381 sole is 3/4 teak and holly veneer. It is screwed down into the glass of the TAGF with two courses of 3/4 stainless screws per panel, meaning about 30 such screws in the companionway landing. The cabin entire has about 50 such screws.

The sole is trimmed with 34 individually fitted teak pieces. ,All are screwed down, for a total of about 75 screws. The trim screws into the plywood.

Every single one of those screws, excepting the periphery under the trim, is plugged. (To remove the sole you drill out the plug with a forster bit, find the exposed screw head, clean it with an Exacto knife, and extract.

To remove all trim pieces and one of seven sole panels took 8 hours.

View attachment 48451

Was this ever a "removable sole"?

Nope. Given the number of screw and plugs, a brand new sole would be disfigured if not ruined even if the removed the next day.

But--soles should be removable!

Yes, but this one ain't. The E32-3 sole is 1/4 inch plywood and if screwed down can be easily lifted to inspect the entire bilge. I removed that entire sole twice at sea. Ericson did glue it down on some models, which was a mistake, and required destruction when replacing. Few owners glue down a new 32-3 soles, since screws work so well. And that model requires no trim.

But if you glue down the E381 sole it will never come up!

Well, it won't "come up" in any case.

Moreover, the new plywood must be made waterproof using several coats of CPES and or epoxy (I haven't decided yet).

To install the new sole with 50 plugs in it--what's that do to the waterproofing job? The holes are drilled after CPES and varnish. Any membrane is therefore violated. Plus, plugs into pre-varnished plywood have no varnish on them, and will never have the seven coats prescribed.

The large number of screws used on the E381 were intended to lock the floor to the boat.

A glued-down sole would be equally anchored and immobile.

A glued-down sole would mean no lines of plugs, a great saving in labor time (many of the existing plugs have no screws under them because the factory guessed wrong about location and had to drill another hole half an inch away to find a holding surface).

I can screw the plywood into the TAFG at the edges, as the factory did. Since those screws are under the trim, they need no plugs.

In sum, the drawback to a glued-down sole is that it can never be removed.

But the E381 sole, as factory constructed, was never intended to be removed.

Access is through generous inspection ports. And so far it looks like on this model there are no hoses or wiring under there in need of future service.

Find a flaw in the argument, please. I can't.

View attachment 48449...View attachment 48450
TAFG exposed; plug lines in sole.

The Ericson 381 sole is 3/4 teak and holly veneer. It is screwed down into the glass of the TAGF with two courses of 3/4 stainless screws per panel, meaning about 30 such screws in the companionway landing. The cabin entire has about 50 such screws.

The sole is trimmed with 34 individually fitted teak pieces. ,All are screwed down, for a total of about 75 screws. The trim screws into the plywood.

Every single one of those screws, excepting the periphery under the trim, is plugged. (To remove the sole you drill out the plug with a forster bit, find the exposed screw head, clean it with an Exacto knife, and extract.

To remove all trim pieces and one of seven sole panels took 8 hours.

View attachment 48451

Was this ever a "removable sole"?

Nope. Given the number of screw and plugs, a brand new sole would be disfigured if not ruined even if the removed the next day.

But--soles should be removable!

Yes, but this one ain't. The E32-3 sole is 1/4 inch plywood and if screwed down can be easily lifted to inspect the entire bilge. I removed that entire sole twice at sea. Ericson did glue it down on some models, which was a mistake, and required destruction when replacing. Few owners glue down a new 32-3 soles, since screws work so well. And that model requires no trim.

But if you glue down the E381 sole it will never come up!

Well, it won't "come up" in any case.

Moreover, the new plywood must be made waterproof using several coats of CPES and or epoxy (I haven't decided yet).

To install the new sole with 50 plugs in it--what's that do to the waterproofing job? The holes are drilled after CPES and varnish. Any membrane is therefore violated. Plus, plugs into pre-varnished plywood have no varnish on them, and will never have the seven coats prescribed.

The large number of screws used on the E381 were intended to lock the floor to the boat.

A glued-down sole would be equally anchored and immobile.

A glued-down sole would mean no lines of plugs, a great saving in labor time (many of the existing plugs have no screws under them because the factory guessed wrong about location and had to drill another hole half an inch away to find a holding surface).

I can screw the plywood into the TAFG at the edges, as the factory did. Since those screws are under the trim, they need no plugs.

In sum, the drawback to a glued-down sole is that it can never be removed.

But the E381 sole, as factory constructed, was never intended to be removed.

Access is through generous inspection ports. And so far it looks like on this model there are no hoses or wiring under there in need of future service.

Find a flaw in the argument, please. I can't.

Look up z-hooks and z-clips to see if there are configurations that would allow you to only have to unscrew one piece, and then the others could be slid back from clips mounted to the grid.

 

[Christian Williams]

It's a good idea, but the issue is the 34 trim pieces and the seven sole panels.

The sole has to fit through the companionway, hence all the individual parts. The elaborate trim is necessary to close the edge gaps, in the same manner as baseboards in a house.

Other models (E32-3) solved the trim issue with a TAFG designed to accept plywood recessed into the mold, which makes a neat edge without the need for trim.

 

[JSM]

To install the new sole with 50 plugs in it--what's that do to the waterproofing job? The holes are drilled after CPES and varnish. Any membrane is therefore violated. Plus, plugs into pre-varnished plywood have no varnish on them, and will never have the seven coats prescribed.

I could be wrong but I would be concerned about panels shifting or moving vertically as the glue sets resulting in an uneven floor. (along with a self inflicted gunshot wound to the head ). When I did my sole I noticed that any rot or delamination of the old sole was at the exposed edges with none at any of the bung holes.

Part of the beauty of epoxy / CPES coating is that you can apply fewer finish coats. I used Verithane oil based floor finish. One coat in the shop before installation and and two more coats after bungs were glued in and sanded down.
With the proper drill bits counter sinking the screws was fairly quick and easy.
Sole still looks great after five seasons of heavy use.

 

[bigd14]

What about some hidden removable fasteners on the underside of the panels with a receptacle in the floor and a stud on the panels? Kind of like how some car trim panels are fastened and removed by pulling up on them until the pin releases from the socket. I didn't quite find what I was looking for in a brief google search, but something like this:

 

[Prairie Schooner]

@Christian Williams
Though you've got me thinking. I might put some double stick carpet tape on the floors before I put the sole down. That might reduce a tendency to bounce in spots. I'm hoping to avoid any screws not covered by trim so I can put all the coats of finish on before the panels go in the boat.

I think your point about perforating a sealed membrane is right on. That has been in my mind as I've been working on this and it's why a friend recommends using a semi-permeable coating for the underside. Any water that does find it's way into an epoxied envelope will have a hard time drying out. I thought Bilge Kote would do the trick but I called the mfr and they said it needs to be applied to a primer coat which is epoxy so I don't see the point in using BK. We're using Epifanes Poly-urethane on top and I've applied the first coat (of 5-ish?). Right now my plan is to epoxy primer the underside. Don't ask why we're using E P-U. It's a decision we made talking to an Epifanes rep at a store open house almost two years ago. Whatever he said made sense at the time and we bought our supply. But now the reasoning escapes us.

Good luck,
Jeff

 

[Prairie Schooner]

@Christian Williams
I've noticed some warping in the panels as I've been working on them. One nice thing about screwing things down is they can be torqued into position or even micro-adjusted by backing off on screws. I'm not sure how I'm going to handle that. As you glue your panels down, I will be interested in seeing how you hold things in place so adjoining panels cure flush to each other.
Jeff

 

[Christian Williams]

I have temporary panels installed now of 1/2" plywood, which with some adjustment will serve as templates for the T&H.

I intend to screw down the edges, under the trim. The glue is only for the center, to avoid all the plugs Ericson used there.