waterpump woes....

[Frank Langer]

Hi,

The bearings on my fresh water circulating pump were starting to growl, so I decided to replace it. Mechanic confirmed that it was the waterpump making the noise and suggested that I could replace it myself.

I sprayed stuff on all the bolts for three days to overcome the anticipated corrosion (1984 universal 5416 engine, 997 hours) and then began. 14 of the 16 bolts came loose with persuasion, but the last two broke off at the head. When I phoned my mechanic with what I knew wasn't good news, he bemoaned my fate, soon to be his, and said he would come Tuesday.

He said that drilling a pilot hole and then inserting an "ease out" was the planned strategy, but said it would be tough as the bolts are only 1/4" diameter.

So my question, does anyone have any ideas or advice to help us solve this situation? I am worried that because of his cursing and worry (he is a nice guy and seems very competent and has been very good to date), we may not be successful in removing the two bolts. They broke off about 1/8" inside the block. I have been adding more corrosion release stuff (called "Move it", which seems to be the best) in the hopes that it will persuade the remaining bolts to release. Is there anything else I can do? What do we do if we can't get the bolts out?

The good news is that while I had drained the coolant, I replaced one of the older coolant hoses successfully and took the time to clean the heat exchanger. But this feel good stuff doesn't really ease my worry that we won't get the bolts out to replace the fresh water pump and I'll never be able to sail this boat again!

Any suggestions, ideas, advice or consolation is very welcome. What should have been a one hour job has become a bit of a nightmare....but maybe I'm worrying too much.

Frank

 

[bayhoss]

Frank, The bolts will probably come out. The vibration and movement of the drilling will actually help. Once the hole is drilled the easy out should be able to grip and remove. If this fails, then the entire bolt can be drilled out and then rethreaded. Even if that fails there are threaded inserts that can be installed into the drilled out hole. You are correct in allowing the bolt to soak in lubricant. The longer it sits, the more it will help. If there is enough room putting some direct heat with a small propane torch will also get things moving - take care that you do not put fire to the flammable fluids used to remove corrision.

Best and good luck,
Frank

 

[bayhoss]

Just to be certain... Frank, your mechanic does know that you should use a left handed (counter clockwise) bit for stud or wrung bolt removal. A standard clockwise bit turns to the right and will serve to tighten. A left hand bit has to have the drill in reverse to drill a hole and turning to the left will serve to losen. You may want to check with your mechanic, or just take a peek and see for yourself.

Best, Frank

 

[tenders]

This is a fairly frequent situation. Don Moyer's advice on his Atomic Four website is not to use an "easy-out" because those things are made of very hard, but very brittle, steel. If THAT breaks inside your engine it's going to be extremely difficult to remove.

He suggests instead drilling a small hole in the middle of the broken bolt, then successively larger holes, until you can pick out the pieces of the old bolt, then "chasing" the threads of the hole with a tap to clean it up.

 

[Martin King]

I would agree with tenders. My experience is easy outs don't work
that well, and if you break it off, you are screwed. Better to drill
it out and chase the threads. Incidentally, the best penetrant I have found for helping break loose rusty bolts is Kroil. Good luck.

 

[Glyn Judson]

Drilling out a broken bolt.

Frank, Let me add a third voice and vote to drilling out those bolts, I too have had success using that method. Even if the first hole you drill is not on center or walks during the enlarging process, the moment will come when you'll see that you can begin picking out the remains of the bolt. You should be able to gently pry away at the wafer-thin threads and then begin to work around the hole, successively removing more and more material until it all gives way and the old threaded remains are freed. Chase the threads in the casting and proceed with reassembly. If you start now, you should have the whole job buttoned up before the sun rises on Monday morning...........kidding....kidding, kidding, kidding. Good luck, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks for so much helpful feedback on this. One additional factor is that these bolts have a #7 stamped on the bolt head. When I bought replacement bolts at the chandlery for those two that broke off, the guy sold me regular stainless steel, but cautioned that the new ones were not as strong as the #7 bolts.

While I'm pretty sure that the new stainless steel will be strong enough to hold the water pump in place, it means that drilling out the broken off #7 bolts might be quite a challenge if they are that hard.

But I appreciate the advice to drill rather than using the easy out, and drilling counterclockwise makes sense too. Based on one past experience where I had to drill a broken bolt, I did get it out, but ended up enlarging the hole a bit because of the drill bit slippiing, so that it needed re-threading. I guess that would be ok.

I appreciate all the advice--any more is also welcome. I'll add more corrosion breaking oil over the weekend (I'll try to find Kroil). Hopefully we can get it out.

I'll report back when it's done in case others encounter this problem in the future.

Frank

 

[tenders]

So what you've got there is an "SAE grade 7 hex head cap screw" or "hex bolt."

It's a bit of a specialty part but they are certainly available from boltdepot.com or fastenal.com; probably not from your local hardware store unless they specialize in industrial supply.

Inch-system fasteners usually have little radial lines cast into the tops of their heads to indicate grade rather than the number. If there are lines there, the grade is two more than the number of lines -- so your grade 7 fastener will have five lines in it, grade 5 would have two lines in it. Higher grade is better; more precise machining of the threads, better casting process, more uniform finish, and better alloy I think. This might make it harder to drill out.

But I would think you don't need a fancy fastener for this purpose, especially if 16 are involved.

 

[Frank Langer]

Hi Tenders,

Thanks for that additional information about the bolts, to help me understand what I'm dealing with. I agree that for this application, 16 stainless steel bolts are probably sufficient and the more specialized bolts are likely unnecessary. I'll ask my mechanic about that as well when he comes on Tuesday. If I need to change to the higher quality, I could likely do this one bolt at a time later, to keep the water pump and gasket in place, but hopefully that won't be needed.

I really appreciate all the information and reassurance in the posts received so far. I'm hoping that we can drill the bolts out with successively larger left turning drills and avoid the easy out, as suggested above.

Part of the challenge will be that these two bolts are in an awkward spot, and getting the drill in there will be a problem, but we'll see. One is slightly behind the lower pulley--maybe we can angle the drill, but more likely the pulley will have to be removed. Ugh!

I'll let you all know how it goes on Tuesday.

Thanks again!

Frank

 

[rwthomas1]

Are the broken bolts in aluminum or cast iron? It can be very difficult to drill the hard bolt material without the bit walking off in the softer aluminum if that is the case. I've removed many, many broken bolts in a previous life from both aluminum and steel. It is helpful to centerpunch the remaining bolt piece help center the first drill bit. It will take a very steady hand, slow drill speed, sharp drill bits and lubricant to do this right. Breaking off a drill bit in the bolt is no better than breaking an E-Z Out. Drill bits are just as hard. Its likely the piece will have to be rethreaded, about 20-30% in my experience actually come out and leave usable threads. I have also done many, many thread repairs with Helicoil brands inserts and they work very well. The nice part is that you retain the original fastener size and are not simply going one size larger. If you are able to rethread the hole make sure when you chase the threads you use a bottom tap if this is a blind hole. RT

 

[chasandjudy]

Are the broken bolts in aluminum or cast iron? It can be very difficult to drill the hard bolt material without the bit walking off in the softer aluminum if that is the case. I've removed many, many broken bolts in a previous life from both aluminum and steel. It is helpful to centerpunch the remaining bolt piece help center the first drill bit. It will take a very steady hand, slow drill speed, sharp drill bits and lubricant to do this right. Breaking off a drill bit in the bolt is no better than breaking an E-Z Out. Drill bits are just as hard. Its likely the piece will have to be rethreaded, about 20-30% in my experience actually come out and leave usable threads. I have also done many, many thread repairs with Helicoil brands inserts and they work very well. The nice part is that you retain the original fastener size and are not simply going one size larger. If you are able to rethread the hole make sure when you chase the threads you use a bottom tap if this is a blind hole. RT

Frank: You have received excellent advice, just do not break them off when putting them back in as a mechanic I had did (Gartside Marine in Sidney B.C.)
Then had the nerve to charge me for his mistake!! His total bill including the cost of the pump $611.41 3 hrs for labour and h did not have to take the old pump off We did that and properly tagged everything for him. go figure

Charlie Eden Ericson 30+ # 720 Victoria B.C. 250 888-4503

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks, Rob for your advice. The two bolts have broken off in the aluminum water pump, but they go through the water pump into the cast iron of the engine block.

Chas, I can't imagine how that must have felt, having them break off when installing the new pump! I'll be very careful doing that, so thanks for that heads up.

Tomorrow is the big day to try to solve this problem.

Thanks again for all the advice to date.

Frank

 

[Glyn Judson]

Getting ready to do it tomorrow.

Frank, Just remember to use a center punch for the pilot drill, it'll make all the difference in the world. Also don't feel bad that despite all your trying, the hole doesn't land smack-dab in the center. I think it's an optical illusion or demons that prevent getting on center about 80-90% of the time. Please keep us all posted, Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey, CA

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks, Glyn. I have also been talking with people on our dock, and of course, everyone has different opinions on how to approach this.

So far, all opinions agree to use a centre punch, strong (carbon, I think) drills of increasing size, oil on the drill bit to ease it and remove heat, go slow and try to drill it out with increasing drill bit sizes.

There are differing opinions on the wisdom of using the Easy-out. Some here have advised against it in case it breaks off and then is hard to get out; some on my dock say that if the drill snaps off, it would also be hard to get it out and going slowly/carefully with the easy-out should be fine. (my mechanic is among these, but I'm not so sure yet).

Some have advocated using a propane torch to heat, then cool, the broken bolts to get them to release; others, including my mechanic say that with it only being a 1/4" bolt in the block, heating it will heat the surrounding area about equally and won't really make much difference. And there is the added risk that it might ignite the copious amounts of corrosion breaking oil I have sprayed on these bolts in the last few days.

My mechanic is pretty confident that he can drill the bolts out, perhaps with the use of the Easy-out if needed. Worst case, he says, is drilling larger holes and re-tapping, or adding a helicoil if necessary, but he thinks we should be able to avoid that.

One mechanic on our dock said that bolts break off all the time and it's no big deal. He suggested I "play" with it awhile, and if I get frustrated, to come and get him and he'll fix it for me. That's reassuring, but he charges $70 per hour; my mechanic charges $40 per hour, so that's where I'll start tommorow.

I'll report back tomorrow night. I hope I can get some sleep tonight. It's amazing how the boat being temporarily disabled affects my well-being....

Frank

 

[Emerald]

One last thought in addition to cutting fluid, no easy outs, drilling at low RPM etc. It may be worth taking a center punch and giving the broken stud a nice firm whack to help break it free. This is really best done on the head of the bolt prior to breaking it loose (no punch then, just whack the head of the bolt with the ball-peen). It's 2nd to heat for being one of those neat tricks to break stuff loose. Just thinking some more on the drilling it out - it really is necessary to keep the RPM down and the cutting fluid flowing. You do not want to create a hot spot on what you are drilling or you will do what is called "work hardening". You can basically inadvertently temper the thing you are trying to drill out if you use too high an RPM and get heat going. Nasty combination to do to yourself. Ask me how I know....

 

[Frank Langer]

Thanks, David, for this additional advice. There is so much to learn....my wife keeps thinking I'd be better off if I just hired someone to do these jobs from the start, and sometimes I think she's right.

Yet then I reflect on the money I've saved by doing my own oil changes, changing hoses, aligning the engine, etc., and I've learned alot about the boat which may help some day when something breaks when I'm away from help. So I guess I'll keep doing this stuff, and keep my fingers crossed that bad stuff (like broken bolts) doesn't happen too often.

Thanks again!

Frank

 

[Emerald]

Hi Frank,

you're more than welcome, and I'll add one last thought. Being self sufficient is a really great thing, especially on the water, but all the knowledge won't help if the tools are crap. Spend the few extra bucks and buy tools for a life time, not the job. You'll never regret having a good quality tool collection, and you'll soon appreciate that they do work better - even things like simple spanners fit better and are less likely to round off that bolt

 

[Gary Schroeder]

strong (carbon, I think) drills

Frank,

They probably meant Cobalt drll bits. That is what you need for alloys like high-strength or stainless steel. The usual bits at any store are black HSS (High Speed Steel) that will not cut into the stronger materials. Titanium coated is not likely to do much either. Cobalt bits will bite right in if you keep medium high pressure, low speed, and use cutting oil. You get a neat looking spiral cutting when you have the right combination of speed and pressure.

They are pricey compared to HSS, but one of them is cheaper than all the HSS bits you'll break and the time you'll spend doing it without one.

 

[Frank Langer]

Update on waterpump woes....

Hi All,

Thanks for all your feedback and advice. At the end of our day today, my diesel mechanic said "and that's why being a mechanic isn't always fun". It was a rough day trying to replace the waterpump, with two of the bolts from the old one broken off.

The old pump came off more easily than I had anticipated--I thought the broken bolts would hold it onto the engine block, but I guess the pump itself isn't threaded, so the mechanic tapped it slightly more than lightly and it popped off (I had tried to pull it off, but was probably being a bit too careful to get it off). The old gasket had been glued on with a very strong adhesive. It was all intact, quite hard and had to be scraped off bit by bit with a sharp pocket knife--other tools we tried were not as effective. That job alone took about an hour.

But then the trouble began in earnest. The broken off bolts were now sticking out about 1/8" from the engine block. We heated them with a propane torch, sprayed with corrosion block stuff, tapped them with a centre punch and then twisted them with a very tightly applied vice grips, but all to no avail despite several repeated attempts. The vice grips gradually chewed away the bolt ends with no movement of the bolts in the block at all.

We found out the block, at least at that front part, is aluminum, not cast iron. The mechanic was concerned that trying to drill the stainless steel (#7) bolts would risk damage to the surrounding aluminum block, and there wasn't much metal around those bolts to allow any error. As well, there wasn't really enough room to get a drill in there properly. Also, the lower broken bolt was slightly behind the lower fan belt pulley. We tried to get the pulley off, but it required a large (almost 2") deep socket, which I couldn't get in town. We tried a 24" huge adjustable wrench, with a pipe through the handle end of it for extra leverage. He put his whole weight behind it, but no movement. Heating it didn't help. Hitting the nut with a large cold chisel and huge hammer also failed to move it. So we gave up on that.

Long story short, we decided that as there are 16 bolts/studs/nuts holding the water pump onto the engine, with only two broken off, and a bolt within two inches of the broken bolts, to mount the new water pump just leaving the broken bolts in place.

The mechanic coated both sides of the gasket with Hi Temp Red Silicone and the fit of the new pump was good. A small amount of the silicone sealant squeezed out uniformly around the pump, seemingly showing that it was a good watertight seal. He said I had to leave it for 24 hours before adding coolant and starting the engine, for the sealant to cure properly (the directions on the sealant confirmed this).

He is confident that it will work fine without leaking. I am very hopeful, and I'll know tomorrow once I add the coolant and run the engine a while.

I wish we could have gotten the broken bolts out and repaired it with all bolts in place, but there just didn't seem to be any way to achieve this. At times like this, the boat is very frustrating. But hopefully this frustrating day will become a distant memory if it ends up working properly.

Thanks again for all your advice.

Frank

 

[hodo]

Frank, if the bolts are broken off just below the surface, and the water pump is aluminum, the bolts have probably corroded along the shank of the bolts. It's that old dissimilar metal thing. You may be able to drill down just far enough to get the pump off without going into the block. The deeper you go, the better chance you have of breaking off a bit, especially a small diameter one. If you can leave a small amount of bolt protruding from the block, you may be able to back it out with Vise Grips or something.
GOOD LUCK!
Harold, Jessie, S/V Mischief Maker