Water intrusion coming in from bottom of bilge

[LeifThor]

1972 E35-2 with lead encapsulated keel, and Atomic 4 engine in good working condition.

My model is where the engine is mounted in cabin, under seatee/lounge right over the deepest part of the bilge. Boat is in a slip on the ocean.

PROBLEM: in preparation to paint bilge, I removed all water in the bilge which I thought was built up from leaking packing (which is normal). Cleaned completely wiped down with acetone, and then noticed along one side of the bottom of the bilge, water coming in from the bone dry bilge at around 1 drop per 3-4 seconds coming up out of nowhere.

tried patching area with Splashzone with no success as the water is coming in.


I am guessing it’s a coming from the keel, or from a pinhole breach in the hull.

In addition the water is orangish in color and slightly orange

How can I find the source of the leak? Any ideas anyone, especially if you’ve experienced this issue.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Here's a thought: Haul the boat, put water in the bilge, and see where it leaks out. That would be its entry point.

 

[Peter Pan]

Another possible test would be to keep drying the bilge for few days and see if the leak stops or start to slow down. If it does, the water from the bilge has accumulated into areas of the keel (and returns when you dry it up) or when it rains, deck/windows leaks manage to get to the keel area internally (and slowly showing up in the bilge via a crack or pinhole.

 

[Nick J]

Before I purchased my 25+, I found one in Portland for $1,000. The listing said it was in excellent condition, but the the boat was priced low because the keel bolts were leaking and needed to be replaced. The boat quickly sold, so I never had a chance to take a look. The 25+ has an incapsulated keel, so I always wondered why the owner thought the keel bolts were leaking.

I did notice some water coming up like this with the 25+ I ended up with. It was mainly coming from the lifting eye hole. After a dry spell and removing the water, it would stop. Nothing is free and everything has its tradeoffs. I think this is one of the tradeoffs with an encapsulated keel.

 

[Kenneth K]

...water coming in from the bone dry bilge at around 1 drop per 3-4 seconds coming up out of nowhere.

It's not coming up from nowhere, you just have to find it.

If you can get the bilge bone dry, that's a good start. Dry the bilge, then draw lines around/across the bilge with water-soluble marking pens. Tape paper towels to things you can't mark. Keep tracing the wetted areas outward until you get to the source.

 

[Christian Williams]

Seems to me it would be rare for any 1972 boat not to have some water in its encapsulated keel.

I'd be interested in the taste and color. Salty? Orange could be coolant, or rust. Reddish could be diesel. Tan can be just old sawdust from construction.

Next haulout you can check for exterior keel damage or porosity, but a few drips, a constant layer of water in the bilge--pretty common.

 

[LeifThor]

Here's a thought: Haul the boat, put water in the bilge, and see where it leaks out. That would be its entry point.

Great minds think alike, I also thought that a good way to troubleshoot it, if I can resolve it without hauling out the boat that would be better.

 

[LeifThor]

Another possible test would be to keep drying the bilge for few days and see if the leak stops or start to slow down. If it does, the water from the bilge has accumulated into areas of the keel (and returns when you dry it up) or when it rains, deck/windows leaks manage to get to the keel area internally (and slowly showing up in the bilge via a crack or pinhole.

Good news is rain is rare here, bad news is it just poured for two days straight hard. To sort exactly where the water was entering I kept drying the area and was able to locate the exact point it was entering the bilge. I think I get your point, but would say enough salt water is entering that I’m sure there’s a breach somewhere to the outside and it’s not simply storing it somewhere higher in the bilge. But it’s good food for thought.

 

[LeifThor]

Seems to me it would be rare for any 1972 boat not to have some water in its encapsulated keel.

I'd be interested in the taste and color. Salty? Orange could be coolant, or rust. Reddish could be diesel. Tan can be just old sawdust from construction.

Next haulout you can check for exterior keel damage or porosity, but a few drips, a constant layer of water in the bilge--pretty common.

She’s got an atomic 4 so no diesel. A wise neighbor thinks and so far I feel this is the likely culprit, one or more of the engine mounts which are rustable steel directly fiberglassed to the hull on one side.

unfortunately on my particular boat, the engine mounts, gas tank, mast compression plate, and helm brackets holding the pulleys are all non-stainless rustable steel. I replaced the gas tank, mast compression plate, and did my best to treat the rust on the helm brackets and engine mounts. He felt and I concurred the mounts are rusted (why the water is orange which is from rust) that rust has expanded, and the expansion has breached the hull. Which also means the only solution is to haul out, pull the engine, carve the engine mounts out, put new engine mounts in, reglass and put the engine back. And since I’d be doing that, I’d likely do the same for the helm brackets too. I’ve replaced the bulkheads where the chainplates go so I know the level of this fix is…a great deal of labor time and $$$.

 

[Christian Williams]

Maybe you can live with it. Others have.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Great minds think alike, I also thought that a good way to troubleshoot it, if I can resolve it without hauling out the boat that would be better.

I had a leak that was coming from a void in the skeg. That's how I managed to find it.

 

[R0D3R]

I came here to post this exact same problem with my 1969 41ft sloop.

I am in the PNW and over the summer, it was exceptionally dry - no rain at all. No condensation otherwise. The water was still there all summer.

The last haul out, the base of the keel has seeped water out for days. Even after drilling, draining, and reglassing, the next haul out I had the same problem.

It did eventually stop, well after the bilge was dry. I then filled the bildge up with water and it leaked through to the bass of the keel and on the ground again.

So far, I've decided to just live with a little wet bildge, however I'm wondering how the long term effects of (presumably) sea water is between the glass and encapsulated keel will be?

What is the long term risk of loosing the keel? I do have a few blisters, but only a few and all smaller than a dime.

What's the potential path of remediation?

I will be cleaning and drying, the bildge again for the taste test. Not looking forward to that, but I'm fairly confident it is sea water. I will report back.

 

[Christian Williams]

Ericson went to bolt-on keels, so forum experience is limited. But lots of boats did encapsulated, and Google turns up various solutions and opinions.

Try Google search for "leak in encapsulated keel."

 

[R0D3R]

Ericson went to bolt-on keels, so forum experience is limited. But lots of boats did encapsulated, and Google turns up various solutions and opinions.

Try Google search for "leak in encapsulated keel."

Hahaha! My partner thanks you - she also told me to look more broadly.

With that said, the quick internet search has a lot of speculation. One useful post of another builder asks if it is Iron vs Lead keel - which I do not know. Apparently Lead is repairable, but Iron is a lost cause - makes sense to me. If anyone does, please let me know.

 

[Loren Beach]

Hahaha! My partner thanks you - she also told me to look more broadly.

With that said, the quick internet search has a lot of speculation. One useful post of another builder asks if it is Iron vs Lead keel - which I do not know. Apparently Lead is repairable, but Iron is a lost cause - makes sense to me. If anyone does, please let me know.

You will seldom "repair" the lead in an encapsulated ballast boat. Iron, however, can indeed swell due to corrosion and be a problem.
Some people think of external ballast when considering repair of a lead ballast keel. EY used lead for their ballast in all their boats, AFAIK. Lead costs more and being denser lets you have less wetted surface.

 

[LeifThor]

I came here to post this exact same problem with my 1969 41ft sloop.

I am in the PNW and over the summer, it was exceptionally dry - no rain at all. No condensation otherwise. The water was still there all summer.

The last haul out, the base of the keel has seeped water out for days. Even after drilling, draining, and reglassing, the next haul out I had the same problem.

It did eventually stop, well after the bilge was dry. I then filled the bildge up with water and it leaked through to the bass of the keel and on the ground again.

So far, I've decided to just live with a little wet bildge, however I'm wondering how the long term effects of (presumably) sea water is between the glass and encapsulated keel will be?

What is the long term risk of loosing the keel? I do have a few blisters, but only a few and all smaller than a dime.

What's the potential path of remediation?

I will be cleaning and drying, the bildge again for the taste test. Not looking forward to that, but I'm fairly confident it is sea water. I will report back.

The worst that can happen is the fiberglass hull can delaminate, so it's important to find the solution. Here are some givens-
1. Shaft packing should drip around 1 drop every 30 seconds, so a bilge is likely never "dry".
2. If you've got a lot of water draining from the bottom of your keel when you haul out, that unfortunately sounds like delamination. I don't know how to fix that, but I've heard it's bad.
3. Some engines (like mine) on half the engine mounts are regular rusting steel brackets fiberglassed directly in to the hull/keel. I'm afraid mine from water intrusion has rusted/expanded to to the point where to really fix it, I need to pull the engine, dig out the old bracket, replace it with G10 or something that won't rust, and reglass, and put engine back. All that has a lot of room for you're f_cked completely, but it appears that's my only way out.

 

[gareth harris]

I have found fresh water leaks by pouring a small amount of each colour from a package of food colouring at the suspect points on the deck, and seeing which colour came in.

Without knowing your knowledge base I may be stating the obvious, but all through hulls should be checked, the original seven on my boat were the two deck drains, engine intake, head intake, holding tank flush which was also the basin drain, paddle wheel, and depth sounder. Salt water can also leak from the vertical riser on the exhaust.

It is possible to connect a crane directly to the engine through the hatch. If a crane is not available then the two photographs below show how I rigged one come along to raise the engine from the mounts and then swung the engine to a second come along to get it onto a pallet on the deck. Half a dozen sailors then manhandled the pallet to my trailer.

Gareth
Freyja E35 #241 1972