Universal M40 32 HP intermittent starter prob

[Tom Metzger]

The upgrades.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...-Universal-Diesel-Wiring-Modifications-How-To

Christian - You are my hero! This is a classic thread. Helping people. Rick not having a T-shirt. You saying I'M old when I sailed all the way to Burlington, VT that year with crew to be responsible for.

Classic!

Ignoring the BS, does anyone know how to get the info back into the download section of the EY.org site?

 

[eknebel]

unless I missed it, the negative connection to the engine has not been cleaned.

 

[Merrimist]

Fault finding from afar

Hi Tom, your time and replies are most welcome and appreciated.


Update.

2 new batteries fitted, AC DELCO DCM27 Voyager II series.

Battery breaker switched on to batt 1 or 2 or both. Batt voltage 12.5 VDC at batt terminals.
Ign switch off, terminals voltage, 12.4VDC.measured across pos and RPM neg terminals.
As soon as Ign switch to on, voltage drops to 0.5 VDC.
Of course, no fuel pump, no oil light, no nada.
Batts and DC cct, stereo, interior lights etc all still good and working. Batts 12.5VDC across batt terminals.

Ignition key off, Alternate 12V supply jumped into negative terminal on Ammeter (at back of ignition panel) and pos terminal on Glow plug GP.
Ignition key switched on, fuel pump running, oil lamp illuminated, all lights in gauhe's on start panel illuminated.
GP button pushed, voltage dropping on alternate source qhilst GP cct energized, after 20 seconds, GP button released, alternate supply back to 12V.
Return system back to normal.
Switch battery breaker on both batts. 12.4V as before across Ign pos terminal and negative terminal on Ammeter.
Turn on Ign key, immediate voltage drop to 0.5V.
Again, of course no Power for GP oil light or signal to start cct.

Following checked. Pos terminal on starter to earth 11.5V.
All terminals removed wire brushed or emery clean and replaced.
This irritating prob has been intermittent, to now not working at all.

You assumed I had 13V at battery when pushing GP.
When that was the case, all was good and engine would start normally.
Prob now is low voltage immediately on switching ign key on.
I am having difficulty tracing live (pos) (purple?) wire from ignition panel back to source. As I would lIke to replace with new.
I have also removed and had starter motor dished up.
I have also replaced the ignition key. No difference. Problem remains. Only to ensure that I need to learn this system onboard my newly purchased, Cannot get out of the marina E38. the previously un loved Merrimist.
Look forward to your fault finding suggestions from afar to assist me in getting this prob sorted.
Thankyou in advance for your time and help.
Merrimist Bermuda

 

[Tom Metzger]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT=&amp]This irritating prob has been intermittent, to now not working at all.[/FONT]

Merrimist - OK, this is good! For me, not you. Now we can find the problem. what is the alternate source? Can it handle 30 amps?

IF you have an adequate alternate source... #10 wire with lots of power behind it... you have shown that it is not the harness at fault.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT=&amp]Ignition key off,[/FONT][FONT=&amp] Alternate 12V supply jumped into negative terminal on Ammeter (at back of ignition panel) and pos terminal on Glow plug GP.
Ignition key switched on, fuel pump running, oil lamp illuminated, all lights in gauge's on start panel illuminated.
GP button pushed, voltage dropping on alternate source while GP cct energized, after 20 seconds, GP button released, alternate supply back to 12V. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]

If I read this correctly, you have a bad key switch. I expect the voltage to drop when you have the GP switch on. Not down to 0.5 volts, but down a volt or so. More if the alternate source is weak.

My reasoning is t[/FONT][FONT=&amp][FONT=&amp]he key switch can't carry the load with no glow plugs. Everything worked normally with the alternate source on the output of the key switch.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->[FONT=&amp]Ign switch off, terminals voltage, 12.4VDC.measured across pos and RPM neg terminals.
As soon as Ign switch to on, voltage drops to 0.5 VDC.
Of course, no fuel pump, no oil light, no nada.
Batts and DC cct, stereo, interior lights etc all still good and working. Batts 12.5VDC across batt terminals.[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]

To test this jumper across the key switch... turn off the 1-2-Both switch first. Put the input wire on the same terminal as the purple wires.

Disclaimer: This advice given after cocktail hour on the right coast. If I'm right you owe me a martini.



[/FONT]

 

[eknebel]

A measured voltage drop with a large current source like a battery without anything melting strongly indicates a poor negative(ground/black) connection, since all the positives have been cleaned. since it has gone from intermittent to constant, it indicates you disturbed a connection somewhere, It can be difficult to find a bad or corroded connection. In a crimped terminal connection, the corrosion can be in the internal crimp, even if the outside is shiny. . you can test connections by putting dvm leads across suspected connection, if you measure any significant voltage, that is where your problem is. with long leads you can test large sections of the circuit(a quick way to narrow the search). As has been suggested, you can use additional "jumper" wires to help isolate problem, but be careful using large gauge unfused wiring with batteries, they are low voltage but can deliver awe inspiring amounts of current given the chance. I can send pictures of my wedding band and finger that suffered 3rd degree burns down to the tendons in an instant, when stupidly put in a single battery 12vdc circuit. I am considering getting a tattoo "Hubris" across the scar.

 

[Christian Williams]

I am having difficulty tracing live (pos) (purple?) wire from ignition panel back to source. As I would lIke to replace with new.

Well, that might be important. Yes, access is awkward on the E38, but the wire bundles have to be taken apart and all the connections examined, right?

The face of my engine surround has to come off (screws, trim), and I have had to remove two GP 31 batteries to get among the wire runs.

It takes time but a professional would have to do it, too.

 

[Merrimist]

Fault finding from afar

Hi Tom,

Yesterday alternate power was a 12V battery at 13. 5 V.

No engine start, no power at ign panel cont.

Starting fresh.
Two new batts reading 12.5V at battery terminals.
New ignition key.

Ignition key off, 12 V Ign batt terminal to earth.

As soon as ignition key switched on, meter on same terminals noted above, voltage drops to 0.5V.
Of course no Power to fuel pump, ignition panel. Note - GP button not pushed.
The voltage drop is when turning key on, no other action.

Can you explain to me the purple wire you mention.
I can see that it is connected to the key switch ign terminal, then looped across to back of temp gauge terminal post then to lamps on Ign panel.
Where does this purple active wire originate.
It goes into cable loom with 8 other wires down into lazzand forward to ............?
I am considering running a jumper from this purple wire origin to prove this wire and crimps connectors etc. Or continuity test, I cannot do either as I do not know where it originates.
Correct me if i am wrong, but this should identify if this purple wire connections, crimps are good or bad.

Or am I looking in the wrong places.

Please keep it simple so I can cont working with this.

FYI, when 12V at ign key when key switched on, GP and ignition panel has power and engine starts as normal.

Thanks again.

Merrimist still at the dock........

 

[Merrimist]

Merrimist engine starts like a new one.........

A big shout out and thank you to all who replied. All replies read but it is now clear they were not always absorbed.
For ex. Ed Knebel posted in one reply that he thought that the batt to engine neg terminal had not been cleaned. Very astute of him, he was correct and that indeed after more work that was not really required, it was found and cleaned and was indeed the cause of the problem in Merrimist case. But although I read it, I did not absorb this, my mistake.
All is good though as the learning curve was steep and interesting. Although probably unnecessary, I now have two new batteries, a new start ignition switch, a new push button engine start and most all the connectors and wires on ignition start panel removed/cleaned and replaced. The experience in learning the boat and systems is priceless.
Bob Morrison and Loren also alluded to the fact that the batt leads and connectors should be clean and contacts checked.
I had temporarily forgotten K I S S - Keep It Simple Stupid. I kept on the track of something more difficult than it really was, I should know better, but I digress.
Special mention for Tom Metzger, I would think that he may have forgotten more than I have ever learnt about elec ccts. I mean this in the most respectful and nicest way. His patience and assistance were happily accepted and allowed me to get the problem found, regardless of Ed pointing it earlier........
For those of you that are interested, Merrimist engine is underneath the double sink, the pos and neg battery cables lead from the battery stowage stbd side aft settee locker going under the battery switch, disappearing under the cabin sole to reappear on the port side in front of the engine. The neg cable is bolted underneath an engine bracket low down on the port side forward end of engine. Quite difficult to see from the removed engine access panels on aft side of the engine. Once found, go go gadget arms, 13mm socket and open ender spanner, a wire brush and a mirror on a stick had the connection cleaned and replaced within 10 mins. Problem found and made good. Happy me and happy friends out on the Great Sound here in Bermuda yesterday. Please let me know if any of you are passing through or visiting Bermuda (AC 2017) as I would like to offer you a refreshing beverage. Tom already has his order in for a sunset cocktail - date to be defined.
Thank you all again for your time in replying.
Merrimist off and a few hours later the floating dock here in the Westend Bermuda.

 

[Merrimist]

purple wire

Ps. still don't know where the purple on ignition wire originates......

 

[Tom Metzger]

Ps. still don't know where the purple on ignition wire originates......

Hammy - You should have asked yesterday.

 

[frick]

Clamp on AMP Meter

You could also borrow a Clamp-on Amp Meter to chase done wires that should be engendered and are not.... it can be fast too.

Of course you do not want to try this with the power on... But I have used a Telephone and Chat 5 noise make that puts a chip down the wire... You then can sniff out the wires by the noise without having to physically trace out the wire run... I found a few abandoned wires on my E29 this way.


Most old Marine Wire was not tinned so they can suck up some salt water and start to corrode under the insulation....

Rick+

https://www.amazon.com/Tracer-Circu...id=1477943083&sr=8-4&keywords=wire+tracer+kit

https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-MSR...1477943127&sr=8-2&keywords=clamp+on+amp+meter

 

[eknebel]

"Although probably unnecessary, I now have two new batteries, "

new batteries are never a bad thing.

Glad you found the problem, engine grounds are often overlooked because they are in difficult to access areas. That which does not kill you makes you stronger!

 

[HerbertFriedman]

clamp on ammeter

Do be careful about clamp on ammeters, most check only AC currents. You have to get one that measures DC currents, they usually cost a little more and are harder to find. I got mine at Sears online.

 

[Tom Metzger]

Do be careful about clamp on ammeters, most check only AC currents. You have to get one that measures DC currents, they usually cost a little more and are harder to find. I got mine at Sears online.

Case in point, the one Rick linked to is AC current only.

Having been troubleshooting DC circuits since Hector was a pup, you remember those big glass bottles, I can say I don't ever remember* a case where I really needed a clamp-on meter. I suppose if I didn't have a battery monitor it could be useful, but that is not troubleshooting. A little knowledge and a voltmeter can do wonders. Hammy and I knew the battery ground connection was the problem before he went looking for it.

* This could be affected by my advanced youth. :0