I have a 1983 E28+ with a fresh water cooled Universal 5411. Generally the engine runs fine (about 150 degrees) but when I need to run at higher (but not excessive) RPMs to push through chop or get the boat speed up to 5 knots or more it heats up rather quickly to 180 and keeps climbing. It seems to be pumping water just fine out the exhaust and the impeller looks brand new. I experienced a fright when while running along at 5 knots the engine temperature climbed up quickly to 240 degrees! I did not notice any difference in power or in the sound of the engine. I'm thinking that maybe the thermostat or even the sensor is bad. If I elect to change those do I need to drain the coolant from the system first? Any suggestions or previous experiences that might help?
e38sailorman
Member II
I had the same sort of problem with my 4 cyl universal in my 38, was the devil trying to figure out why it only overheated when running above 1500 rpm or so. Turned out to be a head gasket problem, the way to tell is to check for exhaust gases in the expansion tank, there is a tester that sort of looks like a turkey baster, clear glass tube with a rubber seal on the bottom, some sort of special liquid is in side that turns yellow in the presence of the exhaust gases in the water.
Geoff Johnson
Fellow Ericson Owner
Another possibility is an obstruction that occurs at higher RPM's such as a loose interior lining of a water hose that balloons inward at higher water flows. Have you checked the water flow at higher RPM's?
Razz
Member I
Overheating 5411
Gary,
You need to go through the hoses from the thru hull fitting to the exhaust heat riser to ensure you are getting water flow. I just went through this exercise and found all kinds of interesting things in my Ericson 28+'s fittings and hoses. I replaced the thermostat for good measure too. There was actually some kind of obstruction in the petcock at the thru hull fitting that I was able to dislodge with a piece of stiff wire. Just go through it hose section by hose section and make sure they are clear.
Also, do you have a heat exchanger in the water tank? You might want to short circuit the water tank taking it out of the loop if your other investigations aren't fruitful.
Nick Handres
nickhandres@earthlink.net
Gary,
You need to go through the hoses from the thru hull fitting to the exhaust heat riser to ensure you are getting water flow. I just went through this exercise and found all kinds of interesting things in my Ericson 28+'s fittings and hoses. I replaced the thermostat for good measure too. There was actually some kind of obstruction in the petcock at the thru hull fitting that I was able to dislodge with a piece of stiff wire. Just go through it hose section by hose section and make sure they are clear.
Also, do you have a heat exchanger in the water tank? You might want to short circuit the water tank taking it out of the loop if your other investigations aren't fruitful.
Nick Handres
nickhandres@earthlink.net
Update on overheating Universal 5411
Thanks to all who posted suggestions regarding the overheating of my 1983 Universal 5411. I decided to put the local diesel mechanic to work and here's what he found. The freshwater pump impeller had broken up and the pump was consequently not pumping to capacity and could not keep up with the engine generating heat at higher RPMs. Furthermore, pieces of that impeller had spread through the engine cooling channels and lodged in the thermostat and heat exchanger. After a thorough cleaning, a new impeller and thermostat things are working normally. The bad news is the cost! The parts are inexpensive but it took several hours of labor to find and fix the problem. Bottom line over $500. The freshwater pump impeller is now on my annual checklist as an item to inspect during spring commissioning.
Thanks to all who posted suggestions regarding the overheating of my 1983 Universal 5411. I decided to put the local diesel mechanic to work and here's what he found. The freshwater pump impeller had broken up and the pump was consequently not pumping to capacity and could not keep up with the engine generating heat at higher RPMs. Furthermore, pieces of that impeller had spread through the engine cooling channels and lodged in the thermostat and heat exchanger. After a thorough cleaning, a new impeller and thermostat things are working normally. The bad news is the cost! The parts are inexpensive but it took several hours of labor to find and fix the problem. Bottom line over $500. The freshwater pump impeller is now on my annual checklist as an item to inspect during spring commissioning.
...and the heat exchanger...
Good deal! Glad you found the issue!
FYI -
You can also have the engine pressure tested to ensure that you don't have a gasket problem.
And - don't forget the heat exchanger (for those of us in salt anyhow) is constantly degrading. Mine did exactly what yours is doing - and the performance kept degrading until one day all my coolant disappeared. I freaked out - and figured out - after awhile - that the heat exchanger had rotted through - and all the coolant was being pushed out of the engine. I replaced the exchanger and the engine ran very cool - very consistent.
Before I sold my boat, project #3234a was to run a tee off the raw water inlet and run a supply line in from my fresh water tanks (with a check valve attached). The idea was (a friend of mine with a Swan did this) to come into the dock, and flip the valve before shutting down the engine - flooding the raw water side of the engine with fresh water. A bonus on this also being the closing of an open thru hull...
//sse
Good deal! Glad you found the issue!
FYI -
You can also have the engine pressure tested to ensure that you don't have a gasket problem.
And - don't forget the heat exchanger (for those of us in salt anyhow) is constantly degrading. Mine did exactly what yours is doing - and the performance kept degrading until one day all my coolant disappeared. I freaked out - and figured out - after awhile - that the heat exchanger had rotted through - and all the coolant was being pushed out of the engine. I replaced the exchanger and the engine ran very cool - very consistent.
Before I sold my boat, project #3234a was to run a tee off the raw water inlet and run a supply line in from my fresh water tanks (with a check valve attached). The idea was (a friend of mine with a Swan did this) to come into the dock, and flip the valve before shutting down the engine - flooding the raw water side of the engine with fresh water. A bonus on this also being the closing of an open thru hull...
//sse
Captainpeter
Member II
Over heating Universal diesel solution
The 4 cyl. diesel on my E38 will run fine for a period of around 5 or 6 years and then will start to gradually overheat at higher RPMs. After checking for lodged impeller parts, clogged hoses, stuck thermostat, and adequate water flow, I usually end up removing the heat exchanger and cleaning it out. You can take the heat exchanger to a radiator shop and have them do it for you or you can buy muriatic acid at a pool supply store or Home Depot. I generally dilute the acid about 1 part acid to 4 parts water and submerge the exchanger in it in a plastic bucket. You should take the end caps off first, though. Several hours total immersion seems to do the trick. I then put it back together with new end cap gaskets. Make sure to bleed the coolant lines before firing up the engine. Since I have owned the boat for 20 years now, I have done this procedure 3 or 4 times and it always works. I believe what happens is that over the years a thin layer of salt gradually builds up on the inside of the exchange and impairs the heat transfer enought at the higher heat loads to cause the overheating. The acid dissolves it away. Good luck, Peter
The 4 cyl. diesel on my E38 will run fine for a period of around 5 or 6 years and then will start to gradually overheat at higher RPMs. After checking for lodged impeller parts, clogged hoses, stuck thermostat, and adequate water flow, I usually end up removing the heat exchanger and cleaning it out. You can take the heat exchanger to a radiator shop and have them do it for you or you can buy muriatic acid at a pool supply store or Home Depot. I generally dilute the acid about 1 part acid to 4 parts water and submerge the exchanger in it in a plastic bucket. You should take the end caps off first, though. Several hours total immersion seems to do the trick. I then put it back together with new end cap gaskets. Make sure to bleed the coolant lines before firing up the engine. Since I have owned the boat for 20 years now, I have done this procedure 3 or 4 times and it always works. I believe what happens is that over the years a thin layer of salt gradually builds up on the inside of the exchange and impairs the heat transfer enought at the higher heat loads to cause the overheating. The acid dissolves it away. Good luck, Peter
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
Excess coolant pressure?
My E 38-200 engine (M-50) runs well but temp will climb to 200 if I run the enginen hard for an extended period of time. Say 2500 or more rpm for 1/2 hour after normal temp has been reached. Once I back down to 2000-2200 is stays at 190 all day. Today I noticed some coolant in the bilge under the engine. It appears as though the radiator cap is allowing a small amount of coolant by as if the pressure is too high. The cap looks fairly new and is rated for 16lbs which seems to be the right cap. I am going to try replacing the cap to see if it helps but if not should I suspect a head gasket? I have access to a pressure tester so I can manually pressurise the system and see if it holds. Someone above mentioned a tester for exhaust gasses in coolant, any idea what that is called and where to get one? I did find some crud in the heat exchanger earlier this year but cleaned it well, andit was only one the raw water side. I will consider rebuilding the raw water pump in a heartbeat as its pretty simple. Has anyone done the freshwater pump and is it as easy as it looks? Seems to me though that the freshwater pump is metal and has vanes like a regular automobile style pump so as long as its not leaking or making noise it should be fine? No coolant in the oil which is good. What other than a head gasket could cause excess pressure in the fresh water coolant side?
My E 38-200 engine (M-50) runs well but temp will climb to 200 if I run the enginen hard for an extended period of time. Say 2500 or more rpm for 1/2 hour after normal temp has been reached. Once I back down to 2000-2200 is stays at 190 all day. Today I noticed some coolant in the bilge under the engine. It appears as though the radiator cap is allowing a small amount of coolant by as if the pressure is too high. The cap looks fairly new and is rated for 16lbs which seems to be the right cap. I am going to try replacing the cap to see if it helps but if not should I suspect a head gasket? I have access to a pressure tester so I can manually pressurise the system and see if it holds. Someone above mentioned a tester for exhaust gasses in coolant, any idea what that is called and where to get one? I did find some crud in the heat exchanger earlier this year but cleaned it well, andit was only one the raw water side. I will consider rebuilding the raw water pump in a heartbeat as its pretty simple. Has anyone done the freshwater pump and is it as easy as it looks? Seems to me though that the freshwater pump is metal and has vanes like a regular automobile style pump so as long as its not leaking or making noise it should be fine? No coolant in the oil which is good. What other than a head gasket could cause excess pressure in the fresh water coolant side?
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
No coolant in the oil and no large amount of steam that I can see. I am really hoping its just a bad cap or maybe something preventing the cap from sealing properly. I will have to pressure test the system though.
u079721
Contributing Partner
Try the new cap first
I also had some coolant in the engine pan of my E-38 some years ago, but I could see that my cap had a leak. A new cap solved the problem, so I would definitely try that first.
As for the high engine temps, I would do as suggested above, and clean out your heat enchanger with some acid. It isn't that hard to remove. My engine would never even get up to 190 unless I ran it at 2450 for hours on a delivery - mostly it stayed at 160 to 170, which seemed awfully low. I replaced the thermostat, but it still ran that low.
I also had some coolant in the engine pan of my E-38 some years ago, but I could see that my cap had a leak. A new cap solved the problem, so I would definitely try that first.
As for the high engine temps, I would do as suggested above, and clean out your heat enchanger with some acid. It isn't that hard to remove. My engine would never even get up to 190 unless I ran it at 2450 for hours on a delivery - mostly it stayed at 160 to 170, which seemed awfully low. I replaced the thermostat, but it still ran that low.
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
I guess I will try the acid on the heat exchanger. When I was replacing hoses and stuff this spring I removed the heat exchanger took it apart, replaced the gaskets and zinc. It looked pretty clean but looks can be deceiving and the deposits are probably on the freshwater side which is not that observable. I would like to acid flush the whole freshwater side but it looks like that would be a real PITA. I will try the cap and hope the leaks stop. As for the high temps I am going to do a few things: Rebuild the raw water pump as I noticed a tiny bit of leaking there, probably seals, I will then give the heat exchanger the acid test, I mean treatment. I may also take a look at the thermostat and see if it is performaing properly. Could be a restriction there. I thought of replacing the oberdorfer water pump with a sherwood as the sherwood is supposed to be a higher volume pump but its a pricey trade that may not in fact do much. With regards to the cap is it as easy as going to the auto parts store and buying a cap rated for 16 PSI?
Captainpeter
Member II
E38 engine overheating
Tom, the best way to clean the heat exchanger with acid is to put enough of the water/acid in a plastic bucket to cover the whole heat exchanger. Take both end caps/gaskets off and entirely submerge the unit. It's best to buy new gaskets. After soaking for a few hours, thoroughly rinse the unit with fresh water, and reassemble it. I usually spray paint it with some marine enamel before remounting it on the engine. It is important to bleed the fresh water side to make sure there are no air bubbles. Years ago, Ericson sent me instructions and parts for replumbing the fresh water circuit. Supposedly to make the engine run cooler. The new set up included a bleed valve in the line either to or from the water heater (I don't remember which, though). I have used both the Sherwood and Oberdorfer pumps (currently using the Oberdorfer) and have found no difference in the engine temperatures. I bought a new cap at an auto parts store and it seems to work fine. My engine temperature now never gets above around 160. Years ago (I have owned the boat for 21 years) I called Universal Diesel and they said the 160 degree temp was ok. Good luck, Peter Nilsen
Tom, the best way to clean the heat exchanger with acid is to put enough of the water/acid in a plastic bucket to cover the whole heat exchanger. Take both end caps/gaskets off and entirely submerge the unit. It's best to buy new gaskets. After soaking for a few hours, thoroughly rinse the unit with fresh water, and reassemble it. I usually spray paint it with some marine enamel before remounting it on the engine. It is important to bleed the fresh water side to make sure there are no air bubbles. Years ago, Ericson sent me instructions and parts for replumbing the fresh water circuit. Supposedly to make the engine run cooler. The new set up included a bleed valve in the line either to or from the water heater (I don't remember which, though). I have used both the Sherwood and Oberdorfer pumps (currently using the Oberdorfer) and have found no difference in the engine temperatures. I bought a new cap at an auto parts store and it seems to work fine. My engine temperature now never gets above around 160. Years ago (I have owned the boat for 21 years) I called Universal Diesel and they said the 160 degree temp was ok. Good luck, Peter Nilsen
Captainpeter
Member II
Engine overheating
Oops, sorry Ted about calling you Tom. Peter
Oops, sorry Ted about calling you Tom. Peter
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
I am having a mechanic look at the engine this week as I replaced the cap and it still leaked. Waiting to hear the verdict. I also am having him align the engine. You guys mentioned the engine never getting above 160, the service manual says 190 is normal operating temp. I wonder if you guys are running different thermostats?
u079721
Contributing Partner
Do the stove top test
Ted,
Why don't you remove your thermostat and take it home for the stove top test. Hang it by some wire in a pot full of cold water on the stove with a thermometer immersed. Then slowly raise the temp and watch the temps at which the thermostat first begins to open, and at which it is fully open. My new factory Universal replacement thermostat started to open at 162 degrees F, and was fully open by 170 degrees. With this unit my normal engine operating temp was about 160, and it never got over 180 even when running at 2450 rpm for hours.
The old unit that came with the boat never fully closed, and it was fully open between 144 and 150, so these things vary quite a bit.
Ted,
Why don't you remove your thermostat and take it home for the stove top test. Hang it by some wire in a pot full of cold water on the stove with a thermometer immersed. Then slowly raise the temp and watch the temps at which the thermostat first begins to open, and at which it is fully open. My new factory Universal replacement thermostat started to open at 162 degrees F, and was fully open by 170 degrees. With this unit my normal engine operating temp was about 160, and it never got over 180 even when running at 2450 rpm for hours.
The old unit that came with the boat never fully closed, and it was fully open between 144 and 150, so these things vary quite a bit.
ted_reshetiloff
Contributing Partner
Yeah thats certainly something I will want to test. Right now I am waiting to hear from the mechanic about the coolant leaking past the cap. Hopefully its just a cap issue, I did not detect unsually high coolant pressure while running but I will wait and see what the mechanic thinks. The high temps are a whole other but probably connected issue. Interesting though that the thermostat you had was specd at 160. I have a feeling the one in there now is higher.
Will in Chicago
New Member
Hey, All. I wanted to get an opinion on my over heating issue before calling a mechanic.
I didn't open the through hull raw water petcock on my first run this season. The impeller burnt up, and the engine shut down. I also saw a slick of oil behind the boat, and there was more oil in the bilge. I have a Universal 5411 that ran great before this issue.
I pulled off all the cooling system hoses, and I took the water pump off to unclog all the bits of rubber. I didn't take the heat exchanger off for a thorough cleaning yet. The engine will fire up after some sputtering, but I'm getting a considerable amount of white smoke from the exhaust upon start (the exhaust smoke stops after the engine starts up), and when the engine warms up I'm getting a considerable amount of white smoke in the engine room. The engine will also shut down if it's being run hard (around 3000 RPM).
Any ideas? I'm really hoping I didn't crack the block or blow a head gasket, but I'm feeling like this is bad. The smoke coming from the engine is very concerning. I didn't see any coolant in the engine oil.
I didn't open the through hull raw water petcock on my first run this season. The impeller burnt up, and the engine shut down. I also saw a slick of oil behind the boat, and there was more oil in the bilge. I have a Universal 5411 that ran great before this issue.
I pulled off all the cooling system hoses, and I took the water pump off to unclog all the bits of rubber. I didn't take the heat exchanger off for a thorough cleaning yet. The engine will fire up after some sputtering, but I'm getting a considerable amount of white smoke from the exhaust upon start (the exhaust smoke stops after the engine starts up), and when the engine warms up I'm getting a considerable amount of white smoke in the engine room. The engine will also shut down if it's being run hard (around 3000 RPM).
Any ideas? I'm really hoping I didn't crack the block or blow a head gasket, but I'm feeling like this is bad. The smoke coming from the engine is very concerning. I didn't see any coolant in the engine oil.
Afrakes
Sustaining Member
Blown head gasket at the least
If you're pushing oil out the breather tube of the valve cover or out of the dip stick tube then the head gasket has been compromised. Excess crankcase pressure. I had a similar event and found that the head gasket failed between the cylinders and not between the cylinders and coolant passages. Hence no water in the oil or oil in the coolant. If you're pushing oil out of the fresh water coolant side of things then you have other problems. If you saw oil in the water while the engine was running it could be coming from your bilge pump if you dumped a significant amount of out of the engine. Yank the head and look for a darkened area on the head gasket between the cylinders. My M-12 only had 900+ hours on it and aside from a scarred cylinder wall, from a separate event, the engines bearings were within spec. If you have significantly more hours on your engine I suggest a total tear down and rebuild or bail to a Beta if you have deep pockets. Or just have the head shaved and install a new gasket for a short term fix.
If you're pushing oil out the breather tube of the valve cover or out of the dip stick tube then the head gasket has been compromised. Excess crankcase pressure. I had a similar event and found that the head gasket failed between the cylinders and not between the cylinders and coolant passages. Hence no water in the oil or oil in the coolant. If you're pushing oil out of the fresh water coolant side of things then you have other problems. If you saw oil in the water while the engine was running it could be coming from your bilge pump if you dumped a significant amount of out of the engine. Yank the head and look for a darkened area on the head gasket between the cylinders. My M-12 only had 900+ hours on it and aside from a scarred cylinder wall, from a separate event, the engines bearings were within spec. If you have significantly more hours on your engine I suggest a total tear down and rebuild or bail to a Beta if you have deep pockets. Or just have the head shaved and install a new gasket for a short term fix.