Transmission troubles

[gabosifat]

Hello Everyone,
Am hoping some of you can offer some much needed advice.
We’re in a very remote part of the BC coast and having transmission troubles.
the boat is a 1986 E35/3. The original 3 cylinder Universal engine was replaced some time ago with a Universal M35A and has 2300 hours on the clock.
Transmission fluid was changed at 2270 hrs. using Dexron 111 Mercon ATF fluid from Napa.
Today while motoring, the revs started to climb and the boat slowed, so there is slippage happening within the transmission. Went from 5.5 knots at 2100 rpm, down to about 3.5.
My parts manual says the transmission is a Hurth HBW-100, with 2:1 reduction.
When I checked the fluid level, I noticed it was higher than the dipstick mark, and appeared to be overfilled. I had read somewhere that overfilling can cause the trans to overheat.
Because I’m in such a remote area, (Prince Rupert is over 160 nm away), I’m hoping someone has some suggestions that will allow me to limp there as I’m sure transmission rebuild or replacement will be necessary.
I’ll start by changing the transmission fluid tomorrow morning and go from there.
Will check for replies tomorrow as well.
Many thanks in advance to all who reply.
Cheers,
Steve Gabbott
E35/3
Silent Dancer
Gabriola Island BC

 

[gabosifat]

Will also check the linkage tomorrow…

 

[Frank Langer]

Will also check the linkage tomorrow…

 

[Frank Langer]

Transmission troubles are always worrisome, so I understand. When I've had slippage in the past I've done two things to solve that. Firstly, I changed the transmission fluid, which I now do every 75 engine hours even though my manual says it should last 1000 hours. If I leave it longer, I can anticipate possible slippage.
Even more important is to ensure the engine alignment is good. If you measure with a gauge it should be within 2 one thousands of an inch on all four quadrants. If you don't have a gauge you should be able to easily turn the prop shaft by hand, like it should almost spin. If there is any resistance or binding, that will cause the transmission to slip. If you have changed the tranny fluid with the right ATF fluid and the alignment is good, it should not slip. If it still does, you may need to replace the transmission. One clue to a slipping transmission is a fluid check--if it looks brown rather than pink, and smells burnt, it is likely slipping, not working correctly. Also, filling to the correct level is important--overfilling or too little fluid will cause problems.
Let us know what you find. Good luck!
Frank

 

[Frank Langer]

You also said you would check the linkage. That's really important to ensure that your gear lever moves the tranny fully into forward, neutral and reverse. There is info on the internet about how to ensure this is adjusted correctly, but if it's not right, it will cause trouble.
One way to check this is to have someone at the gear lever while you are at the transmission. Have them put it in forward gear and then you check if you can move the tranny cable forward more--if so, adjustment is needed, because when you put it in gear it needs to go completely in gear. Same in reverse. Important to get this right.
Frank

 

[Pete the Cat]

I think you know this: it is extremely important that the linkage allows the lever on the transmission to go fulling into the detent for both forward, neutral and reverse. Running only partially engaged is a death to those Hurth transmissions. So you are on the right track. I have not heard that they will over heat with too much fluid, but they will blow gaskets and lose fluid. You can over fill them just slightly and get away with it, but they do not want to be filled. Let us know how you come out. I think you are on the right track. I believe that transmission is not supposed to be left in forward when sailing--either neutral or, better, reverse. But if that had been the cause you would find some ground up clutch disk facing in the fluid. My guess is that you will be OK.

 

[s/v First Light]

Hello Everyone,
Am hoping some of you can offer some much needed advice.
We’re in a very remote part of the BC coast and having transmission troubles.
the boat is a 1986 E35/3. The original 3 cylinder Universal engine was replaced some time ago with a Universal M35A and has 2300 hours on the clock.
Transmission fluid was changed at 2270 hrs. using Dexron 111 Mercon ATF fluid from Napa.
Today while motoring, the revs started to climb and the boat slowed, so there is slippage happening within the transmission. Went from 5.5 knots at 2100 rpm, down to about 3.5.
My parts manual says the transmission is a Hurth HBW-100, with 2:1 reduction.
When I checked the fluid level, I noticed it was higher than the dipstick mark, and appeared to be overfilled. I had read somewhere that overfilling can cause the trans to overheat.
Because I’m in such a remote area, (Prince Rupert is over 160 nm away), I’m hoping someone has some suggestions that will allow me to limp there as I’m sure transmission rebuild or replacement will be necessary.
I’ll start by changing the transmission fluid tomorrow morning and go from there.
Will check for replies tomorrow as well.
Many thanks in advance to all who reply.
Cheers,
Steve Gabbott
E35/3
Silent Dancer
Gabriola Island BC

I began having the exact same Hurth transmission slippage problem on my 1987 Ericson 32 Mark III two seasons ago. I drained the old transmission fluid COMPLETELY with a small stiff plastic tube and a hand vacuum pump and then installed higher friction modulus Type F automatic transmission fluid (type F was originally used in older Ford automatic transmissions but is still readily available). I filled just to the top of the dipstick. It has virtually eliminated the problem and I have ever since been able to cruise at 6.5 kn under full M25 diesel auxilliary’s 22HP power with no slippage or transmission overheating whatsoever.

If this had not worked, my next plan was to add an aftermarket friction improver to the now installed type F automatic transmission fluid but this step has proved unnecessary.

Best of luck and hope this works as well for your E35/3 and lets you “limp” home (and lots farther) at 6.5 kn : )

 

[Christian Williams]

I filled just to the top of the dipstick.

Filled just to the mark on the dipstick, right?

 

[gabosifat]

Yes, yesterday we drained atf and replaced. No diff in slippage. Have new transmission being flown in, and will attempt transmission change out with boat in the water. Something I’ve never done before, so will be a learning experience. Any advice greatly appreciated…
Cheers,
Steve

 

[Loren Beach]

Yes, yesterday we drained atf and replaced. No diff in slippage. Have new transmission being flown in, and will attempt transmission change out with boat in the water. Something I’ve never done before, so will be a learning experience. Any advice greatlay appreciated…
Cheers,
Steve

Not sure if and how you might secure the shaft when taking the transmission off, but here is a link to our engine swap and it shows the brace I installed to lock the shaft in place. We did the whole engine swap in our slip, afloat.
Rumor is that you may have to move the engine forward to really get at the trans, but I have no personal knowledge.

O34 - Old engine out, planning for the new one

Since, for several reasons, this project needed to be done at the slip, I needed to lock the shaft in position. Totally. It was believed to be well-aligned, and it could not be allowed to move forward and relax the spring-bellows in the PSS seal...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[s/v First Light]

I filled just to the top of the dipstick.

Filled just to the mark on the dipstick, right?

Exactly, top MARK on dipstick, for durw

 

[s/v First Light]

Yes, yesterday we drained atf and replaced. No diff in slippage. Have new transmission being flown in, and will attempt transmission change out with boat in the water. Something I’ve never done before, so will be a learning experience. Any advice greatly appreciated…
Cheers,
Steve

Suggest you try Type F ATF first. Totally resolved Hurth slippage on my E32/3. F had a higher friction modulus.

 

[gabosifat]

Thank you all for your great advice re our transmission troubles. Picking up the new transmission today from Bella Bella airport. Have prepared engine for moving forward- all hoses, cables, wiring off. Need to set up block and tackles to lift engine off its beds and move forward to remove bell housing, and then transmission, and install new. Have engine installation instructions from Westerbeke.
Anyone done this before? Any advice would be most helpful as there are no services up here.
Appreciate any advice people may have as am new to this stuff and flying a bit by seat of my pants !
Cheers and thanks,
Steve Gabbott
E35/3 Silent Dancer
Gabriola Island BC

 

[Dave G.]

Have new transmission being flown in

Curious what brand/type transmission you purchased ?

 

[Bepi]

I'm sure you have checked... but is the prop or shaft wrapped up in line or something?

 

[gabosifat]

No line around prop. Dove to check (bloody cold tho). New transmission arrive by plane today - a “Twin Disc TMC 40P gearbox. Rear engine mounts a bugger to undo, finally impact driver broke them loose. Realize I now have to take a lot more plumbing off as the heat exchanger is in the way. Bell housing next. This has been a very arduous three days of labour so far, and lots more to do. Here’s where we are now, more photos to come…
Thanks for all the support and suggestions everyone!
Cheers,
Steve Gabbott
E35/3
Silent Dancer
Gabriola Island BC

 

[bigd14]

Wow, lots of work. Do you plan on changing out the engine mounts since you have good access now? Either way it’s a good idea to check the lag screws for play.

 

[Bolo]

Steve, I feel your pain or at least I did one time. Back in 2018 my Hurth transmission gave it up and I too replaced it with a Twin Disc40P and have not had a lick of trouble with it since. However after the install, which I didn’t do, I did have an issue with the heat exchanger getting in the way of the new transmission dip stick. If. You have the time you can check out my story on the transmission problems, using the link below, and I address the HX problem in June of 2018 with a solution following. Basically I modified the HX bracket.

Transmission Problems...again. - The Saga Continues

Well, my wife and I had a nice afternoon sail on the Chesapeake Bay on our E32-3 (1987) yesterday and it was particularly nice since we were enjoying the new set of sails that were installed this month. But it was time to sail back to the marina, bring the sails down and motor in....but wait...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[gabosifat]

Bob, many thanks for your reply and the link. The red dipstick handle was the first thing that struck me yesterday when I picked up the new transmission. Lying here in my bunk with the engine sitting beside me in the cabin mulling over how I’ll proceed. Your link is most helpful, thank you!
cheers, Steve

 

[Loren Beach]

Somewhere in the site archives, and I do not know how far back, there was an article/thread about a member relocating his engine HE to a surface in/near the engine compartment. Solved a lot of access problems to several systems including transmission access. (Several owners have also "remote located" their engine spin-on oil filter as well.)
It's useful to recall that the builder of this boat and 99% of the other brands needed an auxiliary power plant "package" consisting of a crated engine/trans/HE that could be bolted into place with controlled labor cost and skill attributes.

Having done a repower I appreciate receiving this whole powertrain assembly that I could mount on two rails in our boat.
Squishing all these parts together was/is a big challenge for the engine builder. For many years I had to shift our prior HE aside a little ways to get at the transmission dip stick on the Hurth 50 (Universal M25XP diesel). It was part of the annual l hassle of maintenance, and I was glad to see that our new Beta engine had superior "marinization" so this task and several others became a lot easier.

Best of Luck to you, Steve!