To re-power or not to re-power?

[mark reed]

Dear sailing colleagues and mentors -

Well, I got a shock today from our local marine engine dealership. I had wanted them to look things over and make recommendations for what if anything we should consider doing before taking the boat to Mexico this fall. I wasn't ready for what I heard.
Compression in two of the 4 cylinders is low (280-290 vs 400 in the other two). Symptoms have been present since we owned the boat (occasional wisp of smoke in engine room, excessive glow plug time needed to start, oil drips on front of crankcase) but I had never put it all together as excessive blow-by. I relied too heavily on the PO's meticulous maintenance records, and the clean bill of health we had been given by the engine surveyor we used in Seattle back in 2002 (but I don't recall if he did a compression check).
Our mechanic recommends replacing engine and transmission with like models (Universal M40 and Hurth tranny) for an estimated cost of $9300 P&L. I asked him for his best guess as to what would happen if we don't re-power. He didn't think it would fail catastrophically, but that it would become less reliable and harder to start.

I am going over the balance sheet and trying to figure out what to do:
1. We could continue to cruise the boat locally and hope that the engine lasts awhile longer (it has not appeared to get any worse in 6 years and 1000 hrs). We might be more anxious on offshore passages between Astoria and the Strait.
2. We could go to Mexico and keep our fingers crossed, but probably have more anxiety about engine failure.
3. We could re-power, but the extra cost is almost equivalent to what we estimated as our cruising costs for the first season in Mexico. The extra cost probably means: a) working a year longer, or b) selling more assets, before departure.
4. We could sell the boat, but would probably take a big hit since we would have to disclose what we know about the engine. If we decide to sell, we would still have to figure out whether or not it is cost-effective to re-power first.
5. I could try to re-build it myself, but previous experiences re-building VW engines in my youth don't make me feel very confident about this option.

Anything I'm missing? I'm seeking ideas, not sympathy. After all, we are very lucky to even own a boat in the first place! Although I must admit I am starting to wonder if I should cut my losses and figure out something cheaper to do in retirement!

 

[Jarod]

I would go with the rebuild option and if you cannot do it yourself or would rather not then I would get several prices from different shops. Pull the motor yourself and bring it to their shop to save on costs then reinstall the rebuild yourself and have a mechanic over for the final tuning and adjustments. This would save you the pain and cost of replacing all of the related wiring, fuel systems, shafts etc etc etc...and you should end up with a reliable power plant.

 

[Frank Langer]

Sorry to hear about your situation--certainly not good news! But I would definitely not sell the boat, if it were me, unless you were already thinking of buying a different boat or getting out of sailing, which it doesn't sound like if you were planning a cruise to Mexico.

As you indicate, you would need to disclose the engine problem to a new buyer, so would lose some of the value anyway. I don't see how selling will solve anything, especially if you still want to sail.

Similarly, to "limp" along with a questionable engine on a longer cruise would detract from your enjoyment of the trip, and may cause problems if it fails at an inopportune time. So I wouldn't see that as a good strategy.

I think the options I would consider are finding a good rebuilt motor at a lower price or working a bit longer to ensure that you can fund the new motor and still manage your retirement as planned.

At least then you know you can rely on the motor, with one less potential problem to arise in future.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide!

Frank.

 

[Emerald]

Despite your VW experience, I'd take a really hard look at rebuilding it. Have any gear head friends locally who can introduce you to a good machine shop? You can probably save quite a bit of money and come out on top if you find a shop you can coordinate with and do something like break the engine down to basic pieces, let the machine shop do the valve side of assembly and adjustment so that on reassembly your just bolting the crank in and installing rods and pistons and torquing up the head. There really isn't that much more detail to it - you're going to leave the injection alone for this - everything else is basically an unbolt/bolt on operation. Just finishing an extensive rebuild on an A4 that needed everything, even had to punch out the block and resleave it (4x$125/hole), and still brought all parts and machine work in just under 2K. Check out the crank rebuild list on Torreson's site, and your parts aren't too bad for cost:

http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/c...ervice=200154&printoperators=200157&comment1=

Just my oily .02

 

[jmcpeak]

You could pull the engine out of the boat yourself and take it to a NON-Marine diesel mechanic/shop. Have them rebuild it. Maybe you might just get away with new rings, gaskets and a valve job.

Just an idea - no real life data. But my guess is, it would be substantially less expensive.

 

[jmcpeak]

4 replies in 5 minutes - gotta be a record!!!

 

[Rocinante33]

Mark,

Since the Universal Engines are marinized Kubotas, perhaps you could get a Kubota short block. That should take the toughest part out of the DIY option. I'll bet it would be a lot cheaper. The marinized parts are all bolt-on anyway (exhaust manifold, pumps, etc.).

Do a search for "Kubota" and you should find some previous threads about cross references, maybe about getting a short block.

 

[mark reed]

I'll look harder at the DIY angle

I thank you all for the ideas on doing some of the work myself. I haven't looked too seriously at this option as I don't know any good mechanics in Portland. I live 100 mi from the boat, and my experience is it takes several round trips even for the small DIY jobs! The fuel tank I just had rebuilt has involved 3 round trips already. I have it partially re-installed but now I have to modify the woodwork above it to accommodate some new bolt heads.

But I will take a harder look at this option, and appreciate the encouragement.

 

[jkm]

I'm with David-I'd tear that baby apart and haul it to a block shop and let them tell you whats what and do what needs to be done.

It's not that hard and I would think a good block shop will do all the hard work and give you back a nice reliable engine that you rebuilt.

What's the worst that can happen, you have to hire someone to put the renewed parts back together!

If you can, don't let the VW thing hold you back.

JOhn

 

[Gary Peterson]

I believe a short block would be the way to go.
You would most likely have to have the cylinders re-sleeved before installing new rings in your current engine. Did the mechanic do a valve adjustment and a bore-scope of the bores during his diagnosis?
I would not be too concerned that the engine would suddenly fail. How is the oil consumption?
Sounds like the mechanic and his shop want to go the easy way and sell you a new package.

 

[rwthomas1]

Mark,
I posted this a while back: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=5062

The website still has it listed so maybe its still there? I frequent that shop and know the owner, Sam, hes an honest guy. You might be able to argue price with him since its been in stock a while.

If there is anything I can do on my end to help you should you choose to consider that engine let me know. I could follow up with Sam in person regarding questions, make sure its packed correctly for shipping, etc.

I have no financial connection to him, just a satisfied customer.

That said, I would strongly recommend pulling the engine yourself with help and taking it to a shop for rebuilding if you are not up to the task. I am guessing the total cost of a rebuild with you DIY the removal and installation to cost 1/3rd of the repower. Good luck! RT

 

[Loren Beach]

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=4839&referrerid=28

Related thread...

LB

 

[chaco]

Go ShortBlock !

Your Diesel is a COMMON Kubota Marinized Skid Steer Engine (BobCat).
ShortBlocks are available from Industrial Rebuilders WAY cheaper than your
parts bill Try www.engreb.com and look on the web for Rebuilders.
You will find that Rebuilding yourself is more than a Home Mechanic can
do with common tools. Taking the engine to a local shop will be $5K-6K
with $3K-4K in parts
I recently replaced my worn out Universal M4-30 with a Beta 902-$8K
Unfortunetly my block was a WEIRD 4-cylinder that was not used in Bobcats.

Get ready to spend a little more time at home before your trip to Mexico.
DO NOT even think of going to Mexico without your engine in top condition.

Good Luckto You

 

[exoduse35]

keep looking, diagnosis is incomplete

I am a mechanic so this is all pretty easy for me (30 years at VW's too) Anyway, low compression means that the air/fuel that the piston compresses is escaping before it is burned. the question of where it is going still remains. The bottom end on these engines are very stout and don't wear much. the head on the other hand is subject to much more wear. I would start with a leak-down test. It is pretty simple, you pump in air th the cylinder with it in fireing position and see(listen) to where it goes. out the intake or exhaust is valves. thorough the breather/oil fill is the rings. If it is valves then any auto machine shop can do a valve job and a few gaskets and your golden. if it is rings then you will need to measure the cylinder bores, they may still be OK, if so then do the valve job because the head is off and remove the oil pan, push out the pistons,hone the cylinder replace the rings, and re install everything. It doesn't have to be the end of the world yet. Even if the cylinders are a bit outside specks new rings will most likely seat and stop the compression leak, you may have the leak redevelop sooner 20k hrs instead of 30 but how much more time do you really need? it it a sail boat. Without a catastrophic failure there is a LOT of fudge room. good luck & keep looking

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

The above is the best post on this yet IMHO. I would not spend the $$ on a full rebuild as there are a number of parts you would not want to reuse on a newly rebuilt motor. Namely the entire cooling system, exhaust, wiring, mounts, control panel, etc. If you are going to spend the money rebuilding you would be better off spending a little more for a whole new engine and do the R&R yourself. Its an easy job to pull and place these motors on the 38. Line up fork lift or crane time with the yard, unbolt everything and slide the engine forward on some skids, lift it out. Reverse on the install. Pay a pro to do the alignment or wing it yourself. But I agree with the last post in that you most likely need a top end job. Probably valves because no one ever adjusts them on these motors. Oh yeah the other thing no one ever seems to do is set the timing regularly too. Do the leak down test and see if its rings, valves, or a blown head gasket. Pulling the head is a piece of cake. Motor stays in boat. Good luck.

 

[mark reed]

Thanks Edd and Ted (and everyone else). I am going to follow your advice and get the leak test done to see if a valve job might do the trick. I'm glad I posted this thread even though it is a repeat of others; it is always amazing how much collective experience and insight this group has.

 

[Gary Peterson]

Another way to check for excess crankcase blow-by is to tie the boat securely to your dock and run the engine in forward or reverse under load and monitor the crankcase vent fume discharge.
Are the two low compression cylinders next to each other and are they in the rear? There could be the possibility that some sea water came up the exhaust and bent the rear connecting rods. During the compression test that was done there will only be air being compressed-not fuel. Fuel is squirted in separately ~10-15 degrees BTDC.
One could hear exhaust valves leaking at idle but couldn't hear intake valves leaking.

Just a thought.

 

[rwthomas1]

Mark,
Here is another question: When were the valves adjust last? Does the engine burn oil? How much? The reason I ask these questions is I mess around with Mercedes diesel cars quite a bit. They too have valves that need to be adjusted. When the adjustment is neglected long enough they start to lose compression. Check the valve clearances and if they are really tight you may have found your problem.

If this is the case set the valve lash a thousandth or two looser than spec. and run the engine for a bit. Check the valve lash again after this. It is possible the valves will reseat themselves but you have to keep adjusting the clearances to allow them to settle in. Sometimes works with MB's....

Another way to test if the loss of compression is rings or valves is to do a compression test and then put a few drops of oil in each cylinder before testing and then test again. If the compression increases the oil sealed the rings and the rings are the culprit. If the oil doesn't improve things then the valves are likely the problem.

Regarding the used engine: I have had a lot of luck buying used engines. Sure its a gamble but if you are planning on rebuilding it may be worth it. A complete engine like that used unit may run great. Or it may make a great rebuildable core that can be swapped in with no downtime for your boat. It also would provide spare parts, ie. waterpump, alternator, starter, injection pump, injectors, etc. I'm a gearhead so I see things a little different.....

RT

 

[chaco]

Real Trouble

As I removed the Head on the ole M4-30 for an inspection....much to my
surprise the pistons were pitted like the surface of the Moon
My engine problems were also hard starting and poor compression.
The pitting was caused by salt water incursion through the exhaust valves
from excessive cranking. I pulled the engine and payed a mechanic $300 for
a full survey and cost estimate. The repair cost estimate for a rebuild was
$6000 and a new Beta 902 including transmission was $8000
The repair options are going to cost more than a new shortblock as you
have to do work beyond the Head. The cost of the parts will make rebuilding
not cost effective compared to a new shortblock.
The issue is where is this engine in it's lifecycle of hours and is it worth
spending a bunch of money and time trying to patch it back together
or starting with a new machine :nerd:

Happy Auxilliary

 

[JMS]

Here is a link to an interesting story on the Cat34 Class Assoc. website. The motor is a 3 cyl. Universal M-25XP, aka Kubota D950. Lots of photos and good info on using OEM Kubota parts.

http://www.c34.org/projects/queimada/m25xp/